Community project cooperative tileset - discussion

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Wendigo
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Community project cooperative tileset - discussion

Post by Wendigo »

Dear fellow slimehamsters,
based on the idea mentioned in this thread thread I'd like to create a cooperative community project where we create a (of if successful more than 1 ;)) tileset for the ohrrpgce engine that we can use in our projects.
Maybe we could do it as some sort of "chain thread":

The first participant creates an empty tileset with just a floor tile, walls and corners and posts it on the forum.
Additionally he/she creates a room out of them and adds an image of the complete room (1:1 ratio) to the thread too.

Then the next participants have a reference for creating assets harmonizing with the art style of the previous posters. They then create some assets on their own, add the new tiles to the existing tileset and post it together with a modified version of the room with their own assets included.
But before I'll fire the starting shot in a new thread I'd like to discuss a few aspects with you:

-> License
For simplicity I think we should use CC-0 as a license.
This enables everyone to use the tileset in both commercial and noncommercial games without the need to mention any names.

-> File type
This is something I'm quite unsure about.

1) bmp-file
The easiest would be a plain bmp-file with magenta coloured background. It could be easily attached to each forum post and downloaded when needed.
But with freedom comes responsibility. The image could be edited in any drawing application so there could arise problems with save formats, used colours and the worst if someone accidentally shifts the grid by just one pixel all following tiles could get broken.

2) rpg-file
A *.rpg file would ensure everyone uses the same colour palette. No one can accidentally mess around with tilesize or save format and it is easy to create a tilemap out of the tileset to see how the single tiles fit together.
But since the forum doesn't allow *.rpg-files as an attachment we would have to rely on third party filehosters (like Dropbox) but the files would be prone to get lost over time there.
If we use Bitbucket for the exchange we would not only have the benefit to keep every version of the tileset but also create a resource for everyone even outside of the ohrrpgce community.
But I fear that using a version control system could scare away some participants since using git and creating a pull request is something one has to learn before using it.
Also a *rpg file wouldn't be very useful for people outside of the ohrrpgce community.

3) Gimp xcf-file
Gimp supports indexed colour pallets, grids and has layers for arranging the different tiles and is free software that everyone can use. In conjunction with Bitbucket it would be easier for others to access the tilesets.
But the hosting issue is the same as with the rpg-file.

Personally I tend to go the *.rpt / Bitbucket way. If in doubt participants could mail me their work an I create a pull request for them.
But I'd like to hear your opinions on this. Maybe someone comes up with a better idea.
Last edited by Wendigo on Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
TMC
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Post by TMC »

I suggest an .rpg file, because making maps is fun, and also get everyone to post a .bmp of the tileset after they're finised so that everyone can see the progress. If they want, they can work on the .bmp file directly (I guess maybe they don't have to edit the .rpg file if they don't want to, aside from importing the new tileset) provided they keep the palette the same.

It shouldn't be hard to send an .rpg file around. Email it, git, free file hosting, or whatever. Doesn't matter if it's not permanent hosting, just as long as everyone else people can download it before it's gone. Then if you want, you can keep a version history in git, but definitely don't make git a requirement.

So, what needs to be decided is which master palette to use. It would be possible to use a different one for each tileset, up to the person who starts.
Last edited by TMC on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SwordPlay
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Post by SwordPlay »

Good call on the license.
I am partial to .bmp, but I like .rpg as well. Both, I guess?
I think the palette should depend on the theme.
Maybe we could create a palette for use in this project? I defer to your experience.

Code: Select all

A cartoony or exaggerated style should use a colourful palette like Dragontao's or BMR's
This is good because of the vivid colours!

If we want to keep things EXTREMELY simple, we should use an 8-bit palette.
There is a problem with so little colours in that some of the works may clash, by, for example, using the same colour, having poor contrast etc.
however, this would overall keep the colour aesthetic of our works, much more similar, compared to, say, using more than 100 colours.

I propose we make tiles for different categories.

-realistic (hardest to do as a community, but most rewarding)
-washed out colours
-probably use BMR's palette v7

-exaggerated (somewhat easier to do, but still distinct styles show up)
-bright colours
-dragontao's or BMR's v2

-8-bit or retro
-differences in our works would be sublimated (hopefully) by the colour restriction

-Black and White
-can be colourised later, possibly to suit different purposes
-can be used for a skeletonised look to be fleshed out for other styles


The default palette is quite good too :)
I use it often!

We should also use a design guide such as this:

-shading conventions
-merged/blended colours or colour ramps
-dithering
-no shading

-perspective conventions
-top down (should specify the depth)
-isometric (should specify the angle/degree)
-front view (should specify the height
-skewed/warped (this is my favourite! Sorta like classic Zelda or dungeon crawlers)


-height conventions
-most things are as high as 1-tile (a walkabout)
-tall things are 2-tiles high (such as trees and houses. taller than a walkabout)
-nice to have things between 1/2 tiles tall
-don't forget the z-level! In the middle creates a nice 3-d look


And for each tileset, we should specify the use and context like so:

-futuristic/sci-fi
-modern
-fantasy
-horror
-etc.

http://rpg.hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/OHR_Palette[/b]

I would like to start out with 8-bit or retro styled tilesets, with no strict colour restrictions.
I would like it if we created a tileset for (fantasy,modern,future) with indoors/outdoors, dungeons, furniture, machinery, equipment, terrain, animated features and all that jazz
Last edited by SwordPlay on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:25 am, edited 6 times in total.
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TMC
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Post by TMC »

I suggest not having too many different tilesets getting passed around at once. For example, could initially restrict each person taking part to starting one tileset, if they want. Add more tilesets as others are "finished" or contributions on them die off.

The initial tileset ought to act as design guidelines if they are complete enough and there there is a map demonstrating their use. You're meant to match that style (though you can reinterpret how the tiles could be used!)

It might make sense to (optionally) have some walkabout sprites, to provide scale and style.
Last edited by TMC on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SwordPlay
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Post by SwordPlay »

I agree. Better to start with 1 main tileset or project, otherwise we'll be spread thin.

I think we should start off with a classic fantasy retro tileset.

This is the simplest one to do, most commonly used, provides good practice and has plenty of diverse features.
Differences in style are more acceptable in a retro format, as opposed to say a hyper-realistic one.
Once we get it going, it shouldn't be too hard to segue or adapt it in to a sci-fi or modern theme, simple graphics are easy to modify, edit and manage.

Whatchall sayin?
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BMR
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Post by BMR »

Palettes

BMR votes for BMR's v7 palette, heh. Alternatively, it could be possible to just use Neo's, as that ships with the OHR. An 8-bit palette works as well, but we'll need to specify exactly what to use and exactly what the limitations are. Possibly just use the limits from the multicart compilation?


Shading Conventions
As for shading conventions, I say make a mockup of the different possible shadings and have everyone choose which one they prefer.


Perspectivce Conventions

Top-down: Possibly, but generally I feel you can't get as much detail here.
Isometric: Definitely not, seeing as how the OHR doesn't support isometric games (unless you do something really cunning and clever). Granted, it looks great, but it's hard to do and impossible to use without a lot of scripting.
Front View: For... platformers? I guess? Could work, but I'd say focus on RPGs first.
Skewed: Actually, when using the term "skewed", what comes to mind is the view for U7. I would strongly vote against that, as it's pretty hard to get right.
3/4: I'd vote for this one, as it's the most commonly used in JRPGs, which is what the OHR specializes in.


Height Conventions
I want to go with walktall height, i.e. base everything around NPC/PC sprites which are two tiles tall. That said though, I don't think all that many regularly use walktall and base their tilesets around it. I'm one of those who does, but that's just me. On that note though, I've already got a sprite base I use for all my walktall stuff, so I'd be glad to "donate" it.
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SwordPlay
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Post by SwordPlay »

It'd be really good if anyone needed graphics for e.g. the multicart compilation, we could chuck some stuff together here quickly.

@BMR

for a good example of isometric, I suggest googling "yume nikki" which does a faux-isometric style quite well in a 2d rpg. Isometric view is quite hard though!
as for the other styles, yeah, they probably wouldn't work so well, except in certain cases.

It's not obvious, but most games use a mixture of perspectives on the tiles and place them to imitate perspective. An example might be a cabinet in the background which appears as if viewed from the front.
Objects on the sides might be tilted towards the camera, creating a fish-lens effect.
3/4 view sounds optimal though.

As for the height convention, would it be possible to stretch or squash the tiles to fit one style or the other? Of course, we will either lose some details, or it'll appear to be smeared. Could be okay in a simple graphic style.
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Post by BMR »

Stretching and squashing, ehh... I dunno, for higher res stuff it could work, but for the low res we're using? No, I don't think you'd get good results. Decent results, perhaps, but not good ones. As for Yume Nikki, it looks ok, but when I hear "isometric rpg" my mind immediately goes to games like Ultima, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, etc... If you mean, however, isometric graphics with orthogonal tile-based movement, then yeah, I can't think of an example off the top of my head.
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Post by Wendigo »

Wow I wouldn't have thought that I get so much feedback in such little time. :)

Personally I would like to keep things simple for now. I see this first attempt as an experiment in order to find out if a community tileset is feasible at all.
So for this first tileset we should stick to the standard 3/4 rpg look with the default (Neo) pallet.
Also the art style should be rather simple, maybe something like pokemon on game boy advance
Something like this for example:
Image
Image
I wouldn't even set a limit on used colours. "As few as possible and as much as needed."

If it works out great we can try more complex/detailed tilesets next time.
Walktall sprites sound nice especially since there are only few games available using those but I'd vote for waiting for the next project since they are "non-standard" to the engine so they wouldn't be available to newbies who haven't yet learned to use hamsterscript.

Another thing that came to my mind is how we should treat other people's work.
Should it be allowed to alter existing tiles if they don't quite fit?
Last edited by Wendigo on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BMR »

I vote yes to editing other people's work. It would help in keeping things to a unified style. So, 3/4 rpg view, Neo's palette, and simple art style. Are we directly imitating those screenies, or are those just for reference?
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Post by Wendigo »

I just thought of them as reference so that everyone gets an idea of the level of complexity I had in mind.
We should definitely create something based on our own creative freedom.
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Post by TMC »

Yes, don't create lots of rules, just somehow someone should decide on a style, and say that new tiles should match previous ones, and that should be enough.

I would say yes to making unextensive edits as necessary. For example you might want to add some missing shadows for consistency, or split up some tiles into foreground and background parts, for layering.
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Post by SwordPlay »

It just occurred to me people in different countries have wildly varying architecture, furniture, cars, clothes, goods etc. and that would be a cool thing to imitate. I hope something like this naturally evolves from our efforts!
It's a bit strange when you travel all over the world in a game, and everyone has the same table, windows, furniture, and stuff like that :p


I put down some jumping points below. I'm sure we can add to this list, probably extensively!

Code: Select all

"objects"
such as 
-indoor or outdoor furniture of all kinds
-cars or carts, lamps, signs
-chests and boxes, crates, barrels, pots, vases
-personal items and goods, like what folk carry or own, or would keep in their houses
-artifacts, things you might find in a dungeon or ruins
-levers, switches, puzzle elements
-pushable things such as blocks, boulders, sliding puzzle elements :)
-plants and trees (can be in a pot, vase, etc.)
-weapons or equipment, on display in a house or shop, or lying around :p
-machinery, from wooden contraptions, steampunk

"terrain"
-roads, dirt, paved, stone, asphalt, brick
-soil, grass, bush, snow, dust, sand, dirt
-hills and cliffs, pits, slopes, etc.
-houses and buildings
-dungeons, ruins, temples, castles
-water, puddles
-hedges, thorns, natural walls,
-it'd be nice to have some effects to go on walls and floors, like bloodstains, grime, cracks, holes, and that kind of thing

I'm just throwing this out there for some inspiration. I don't really mind where we start.
It's an honour to work with you all to bring some prestige to CUSTOM.
I'm saying this as someone who has been aware of the engine for a long time, but was not impressed at the time.

I know there are lots of great spriters here.
Some people are great at creating shapes and forms, some great at shading and colours, some great at conceptualisation, and all of us together are greater than each of us alone!

I think it might be a good idea to do all the spriting in walkabout, 1 tile at a time.
If there are more complicated, multi-tile objects, they can be copy/pasted into large enemy graphics 80x80 which is, 4x4 tiles.
Should be large enough for most objects! But most objects shouldn't be that large, or they'll hog all the spaces on the tileset. Economy is key! Probably :p

An organic way to create a tileset is by theme or scene.
For example, I really wanted to put a bar (drinking establishment) in one of my games, which inspired me to work on a tileset for it.
Similarly, someone may wish to see "ruined base" "secret club/den" "corrupted church" "lair of a monster" or "fancy weapon/armour shop"
This is a more natural way of deciding the subject.
Last edited by SwordPlay on Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by TMC »

"spriting in walkabout"?

If the tileset fills up, which is quickly will if this is popular, spread it over multiple tilesets (someone can split it into foreground and background tiles to behind with). I would definitely encourage people to draw large multitile objects if they want to. Oh, since we're mapping, I guess it makes some sense to begin with two tilesets, to avoid the pain of updating the map if the tilesets are reorganised.

Sure, having a certain setting in mind could be good, though I think it's better if it's not too specific, so that people have lots of choice for what to add. For example, Norse village.

Nobody's mentioned animated tiles. Since there are only two tile animation patterns per tileset, it needs more coordination. I think a 3 tile "wait 2, right 1, wait 2, right 1, wait 2" pattern is quite generic and common,
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Post by BMR »

Ah thought comes to mind, if we're going to be using rpg files, are we certain that everyone is using the same version of Custom? I don't think it should matter all that much, but thought I'd mention it just in case.
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