Heart of the OHR Contest 2014

Gizmog · Post by **Gizmog** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:12 am

Willy Elektrix wrote: *Is there any way to recover health without using items? It doesn't seem like it. This is a common and important feature in RPGs for a reason.

Speaking of which, is there some kind of inn-like feature in Batman and Robin: Joker Quest? This feels like the best place to ask. I haven't found such a thing yet, maybe it's something obvious I missed, but if there isn't one then I'm stuck in a totally unwinnable state.

Willy Elektrix · Post by **Willy Elektrix** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:30 am

Stand: 4/10

Although this demo is promising, there is currently too little content to discuss. As far as I can tell, the demo ends when you are told to speak to the librarian. When I went to the library, he didn't want anything to say to me.

The combat screen looks good and crafting sounds promising, but right now there aren't really any features that have been implemented. I don't have much to say as a result.

This does not feel like an OHR game, which is a good change of pace.

Pepsi Ranger · Post by **Pepsi Ranger** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:57 am

Willy Elektrix wrote:Pepsi: I'm going to need more time if I'm going to play all the entries. Is there any chance to get a deadline extension? How about until the end of the month?

Is this something everyone needs?

If I were to extend it, I'll do it only once more, and only if I'm given the sense that most people want this.

Also, just to clarify my stance on voting for new content, as I have a feeling it's getting debated behind the scenes:

I wrote:I know this is a difficult gauge since we instinctively want to judge the game as a whole, from the beginning. I've already played through Okedoke in its entirety, so I can make that whole game judgment and score accordingly, but not so for Batman and Robin, which I haven't really played until this contest, and am still lagging behind on, and have yet to get close to Joker Mode, and here we are just a few days away from closing the votes. It's a difficult question to answer.

My advice is this: Just play the new stuff based on the save file they give you and form an honest opinion about it. Do you think it's fun? Do you think it's made of quality?

I should've clarified that this isn't the ideal method. This is the last ditch effort method. This is the "we're almost out of time" method.

I wrote:To answer the question, the rules have always favored voting on what's new since the last public posting, and I've always cringed at the idea that people will continue to play the old content and vote because they can't be bothered to play enough to see the new content. I'd rather they give up early and not vote at all than play 30 minutes of content from 2009 (Okedoke) or 2010 (Batman and Robin) and vote entirely on something the creator made outside of the contest. I actually thought that would be implied, but then we're dealing with natural impulses to reconcile everything as new and vote accordingly, so I get the trouble with separating the past and present for the sake of voting. But what I'm asking for is for you to vote according to your opinion about what's new. Whether you do that in context to the whole game or in context to your personal tastes is up to you.

The short answer is vote however you think is fair.

I need to make it clear that the last part, about voting however you think is fair, is the most important part.

When I say vote on what's in the save file, I base that on the fact that most players vote before they get to the new stuff. This is how it was in the last two Heart of the OHRs, and I'm seeing it again here (mainly with Okedoke). I can't tell you not to vote on the old stuff, but I can tell you that the old stuff has already been voted on in other contests, and the number one rule of the rereleased entry is that it has to have at least 30 minutes of new content to be eligible for the contest. The assumption then is that the stuff that makes it eligible for the contest should get the player's attention. I also should've clarified that when I say "playing old content," I mean "playing just old content."

My hope is that you'll play the game up to and through the new stuff. I was never a fan of starting at the save file for the very reason that you lose the game's context if you don't start from the beginning. But again, without the save file, most players won't play the new stuff.

See how this is tricky?

The easiest solution is to play the whole game. From start to finish. Then vote. That's how it was supposed to be. Starting from a save file is just one way to make sure you see what's new to make this entry eligible for this contest.

Truthfully, this is one of those things that'll never please everyone. So, vote according to what you think is fair. Personally, I think it's fair to consider that every author who released an original game for this contest (read: worked hard during these last six months to build a prize-worthy entry) deserves a fair score based on that work. Scoring a game based entirely on old content is basically like rating an author for the time during the release window he'd spent playing Minecraft. Does the author who worked his butt off deserve a lower score than the one who did absolutely nothing?

Obviously, every author here has worked hard on his or her game (and didn't waste the contest playing Minecraft), so please vote on the content he's worked on for this release, if you want to be fair. I give you guys a month or longer to play so that you have time to get there from the beginning, and not have to rely on a saved game that's out of context. The save file is there for anyone who simply doesn't have the time but still wants to see what's new. It's a last ditch effort to score fairly, though, clearly not as fairly as if you play from beginning to end.

And just a reminder: if you were to play from beginning to end, you wouldn't even have to worry about what's new because you can then score the game based on the whole, which is ideal.

Hope that clarifies any lingering confusion.

Gizmog · Post by **Gizmog** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:07 am

I don't need a time extension, I think I've seen what I needed to see.
Your ruling on the votes helps a lot though, thanks. I'm working on my votes now. Before you posted that, I came to the conclusion that the best way for me to vote was probably going to be to treat the save games as if they were sequels to games that I'd never played.

Fortunately I was worrying for nothing, as Batman's Joker Edition is pretty self contained and is the only new content. OkeDoke raises some bigger issues.. it feels weird to judge the final dungeon as if it were the first dungeon in a new game. Contextually they're different things, like... as a dungeon the place is big and same-y, which is bad but not terrible... but as a FINAL Dungeon, the payoff to all of the game that's lead up to it... that's kind of slimy.

Part of my complaint is that I've always been of the opinion that choosing to quit is a valid form of commentary. If a game doesn't hold your interest, or quits holding your interest at a certain point, then that's a hugely important thing the author needs to know. I don't want to seem like I'm playing favorites or trolling though, so I try to "gut it out" longer and give a game every possible chance to redeem itself. That's why I'm asking questions about Batman and Robin in here instead of just writing it off as a typical RMZ boner. It seems wrong in a way, to vote on the last 30 minutes of a game if you would never in a million years reach that point by natural choice.

I'm sorry I can't explain what I mean. I'll try an example.. let's say our entries were Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6 SNES. THE BEST YEAR EVER! Chrono Trigger picks up the casual vote and wins, there's some controversy, but nothin' too rough. Next time the field is Final Fantasy 6 GBA and one of those SEGA rpgs that nobody played. The guys who made that SEGA RPG worked really really hard and made, you know, a decentish game. The guys who made FF6 mucked up their graphics and music, added a boss gauntlet and a bonus dungeon. FF6 is still the superior game, but the addition wasn't the greatest thing in the world. Are we meant to crown FF6 as the Eternal GodKing of OHR, or are we meant to encourage the new games that are carrying the torch?

I love so much of the concept of this contest. I love that it tries to recognize the guys who're doing it right, takin' the long road, and that it tries to encourage them to finish the job. I love that it invites so much discussion as to what the community is, what we should encourage and what we should discourage, and most of all I love that it makes people think critically about games and how to make them the best that they can be.

I don't mean any disrespect to you personally, to the community, to anyone who made games or anyone who's voted. There's just something that feels weird about voting like this. I regret that the two re-releases this year are Fnrrrf and RMZ, two guys I've historically feuded with, because it makes this seem like something petty which it isn't. If a game still has problems 4 years after its initial release, I think that's a fair complaint. Likewise, if a game has improved by leaps and bounds in that timespan, I think that's also a fair thing to praise?

OkeDoke! is a game that got finished this time around. That's a monumental achievement and I can't congratulate Fnrrf enough for it. I didn't particularly like the start of his game, and I don't particularly like the end of his game, for reasons that I'll get into with my actual vote, but that is what it is.

Batman & Robin is a game that was already finished, wasn't it? And we're judging it on bonus content. The sequel theory holds water here, where if RMZ had released this game seperately as Joker & Harley it'd be a totally different discussion. I've never played the main game of Batman & Robin, so it feels weird to judge it. If 2 years from now he tacks on "Commissioner Gordon & Sergeant O'Hara" mode, is it going to feel weird to not factor in Joker and Harley mode and Batman and Robin mode?

And then there's the worst possibility which is that someday someone finishes their game, and tacks on 30 minutes of Britney Spears music videos every HOTOHR to keep some kind of weird street cred going.

It's probably not going to change anything this time around. I was very afraid that the last chapter of Oke Doke would be stupendously good, and I would be left to debate whether or not it was worth the time in purgatory to get to those pearly gates, not knowing that they were going to be there.

Not just to slime on OkeDoke either. I didn't finish most of the games this time around and with a few exceptions, I didn't WANT to finish most of them. This year's field had a lot of flaws, a lot of games that were trying to be "EPIC" and "REAL RPG" rather than trying to be FUN. The game I liked the most isn't even on the list because it's a "joke" but we've got a game on there that might not even be a game, just a pretentious pile of graphics!

But enough talk. My votes are coming.

Gizmog · Post by **Gizmog** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:57 am

I've already reviewed most of these games, so I'm not going to comment very deeply on them. If you want to know more, read the review. I'm considering this more of a Report Card kind of a thing. Batman and Robin's Joker Mode will be getting a review here since I consider it seperate from the main game, and I will be talking more about OkeDoke since Chapter 6 has given me further perspective.

Batman and Robin: Joker Mode: 3 out of 10

I believe it is safe to say that this is the boringest game to ever feature the Joker. Nearly every aspect of the game falls flat. A lot like Troll Over, you spend most of your time walking slowly from Point A to Point B, and a lot like Troll Over there isn't much to laugh at. Battles aren't random, but are instead of "Don't touch the NPC spazzin' around randomly" variety. Sometimes there's more than one NPC and you'll "touch" both of them at once and get sucked into a double battle. I'm begging of anyone who implements these in the future, PLEASE include immunity frames. There is nothing more frustrating than fighting an entire room full of bad guys with no chance to get away. We've got zones that'll let you limit where each NPC can go, you can set up decent dodgable patrols, there's no reason to half-slime it any more. Thank you!

The maptiles and backgrounds are pretty bland. That's realistic for a prison, but comic books aren't about realism. Get creative, make Arkham the spooky kind of a place it oughta be. A super-prison for super-villains. Sound design is even worse. The same plodding song plays OVER AND OVER again. It isn't exciting prison-break music, it's "You're really spending 15 years in prison and we're playing this to keep you bored so you don't rape anybody in the showers" awful. It even plays in battle, making it more monotonous... and then the battle victory jingle kicks in and starts the whole damn thing over from the start. There was special boss battle music that brought a little more excitement, but I only lived to see one boss fight.

For a game about a joker, the rules are incredibly strict. Saving is limited to designated save points, one of which is at the very start of the game and the other one I encountered was literally two steps before a boss battle. I didn't even notice it was there the first time and got the slime knocked out of me by the boss. The second time, grumblin the whole walk back about the unfairness of a boss fight without a convenient save point, I noticed it and felt stupid. Putting it in the room BEFORE the boss fight might've been a nicer move.

One of your characters has healing abilities which can be used during battle. There is also an ability to recharge your MP in battle, meaning that the heals are theoretically infinite IN BATTLE. You can neither heal nor recharge your MP out of battle with "magic". You can recover using items, though the healing items are supremely rare. I eventually found myself painted in a corner, having no items to heal outside of battle, having not enough MP to heal in battle, and having not enough health to survive two turns to recover MP and then heal.

To the best of my knowledge there are no "inns", which again is realistic: If Joker takes a nap till he feels better, Batman's just gonna lock the door and call it a day. I *LIKE* this battle system, but to really make it work I think there should've been a helpful inmate who agrees to get his slime kicked so that you can recover your MP and heal in battle. Would've been tonatically appropriate for the Joker to beat up a guy, would've been just a little bit jokey and meta which is also great given the protagonists, and it dodges the time constraint of an inn while maintaining the... what's the word, the fact that it stands still. Could've also automatically restored MP before each battle, just to streamline a little.

At any rate, it is TOTALLY unforgivable for a person to be able to "Trap" themselves in a game. If I slimed up somehow, let me know but try to consider that while the items and enemy encounters are fixed, the battles themselves are not. Turn-based battles would've served this game much better than the Active ones it uses. It's a pretty long stretch between turns, a stretch that lasts even longer because there's no sound effects whatsoever. The active ones also introduce a level of randomness to things, which means someone (Me!) could theoretically get unlucky and get stuck. Each of your characters has SIX techniques to choose from, and The Joker gets more as you rescue different criminals. It's easy to get punched in the face while you're reading what that stuff does and that isn't very fun.

Harley has an attack that "buffs" your power, but when I used it it only buffed my damage by one point. Maybe I had an unlucky roll of the dice, but that seems pretty useless. On level up, you can choose whether or not you want to boost each character's HP or Strength, and I generally chose strength. It wasn't a big boost, but I did notice the change. It's a cool system, but that's basically the only strategic choice you'll make. Only equipment I found was Orca's "ring" which boosted my MP. You can also only equip items at a save point, not sure what the logic is to that decision.

Just like in Mr. Triangle's adventure, this boss battle dragged on way longer than it should have, even after figuring out the "solution". Water/Whale + Lightning = Uh-oh!. Would've been funnier if it was Joker's fish attack that was the weakness. All the battles drag on a little longer than they should, but that's mostly the fault of low hero speed. The enemies seemed to die in 2 hits and you have two party members, so if each enemy dies in a round that's not too bad. Just keep a high rate of rounds per minute.

It's kind of a puzzle RPG, in that your goal is to release 5 bad guys to help you in some nefarious scheme. There's only one way "forward" at a given time, which makes it easier to figure out what to do. Also, the game lets you know at the other dead-ends that you need something you don't have yet, which is helpful. A lot of games would just be quiet until you've got the item. Once you've released a bad guy, there's things he can do to help you move forward. Break open a crack in the wall, pull a grate off the air vents, maybe gas some pesky guards. The little cutscene that pops up when you do this is nice, but would be way way better with sound effects.

(For that matter, why can't the guys I break out of prison help me fight? I get that Joker can "summon" them, but it takes a lot of MP and is just a fancy spell. Would've been cooler if they'd joined the party, and would've made things more fun and added a layer of strategy. Poison Ivy's really gonna come runnin all the way back to where we are just to open a grate and then leave as quick as she comes?)

I would've really liked to have more jokeyness, more banter. There's a good one liner every now and then, but I'd expect the Joker to be a bit more animated. I never expect for him to be boring.

I do like that the main menu is very classy, and when you switch to Joker Mode it actually switches to a different main menu. That's a nice touch! Weirdly, the "Quit" option on the main menu just starts the main menu over again. I would've liked a "Quit To Main Menu" option in the game itself, would've made it quicker to reload. I realize it would be tricky to pull off, but I would've liked to have seperate save slots for Joker Mode and Batman Mode.

Finally a bug report, if you hold down a direction key when you go in an elevator, you can become desynched from the map grid or even end up outside the wallmaps and unable to proceed. A very disappointing effort.

Gizmog · Post by **Gizmog** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:35 pm

Oke Doke: 5 out of 10.

I already reviewed this game so most of my thoughts will be here. Almost all of the complaints still hold water. The following are my thoughts on Chapter 6, and my general feelings using Chapter 6 as perspective.

I quit probably an hour into Chapter 6, when I found myself in a room where I can't run from battle and every step I trigger another battle. I've been able to run from identical battles in the rest of this dungeon, but this one room is mysteriously a no-run zone. The battles still take forever, though the new girl has some interesting spells. Everyone has a lot of techniques and it's difficult to tell what the point is to some of them. Flaming Fart still seems to be the best bet, and Flaming Hand/Shock Hand/Etc. don't seem to do too much. I realize some of this is the result of diving into the deep end, but end game should have some more obvious nukes.

One thing that kills me is that I'm still seeing the same gimmicks in the last dungeon as I was in the first one. I'm still rooting through garbage cans for loot, and a surprisingly high number of them are still Oscar The Grouch monster in a box. One chest I opened was a Tinfoil Hat and I had a Tinfoil Hat in Chapter 2! I don't remember finding any dirks in Kefka's Tower, this makes the whole game feel so... ugh, like nothing's new. A few of the enemies are really cool looking, but a lot of them are just palette swaps of the same slime I already saw. That shouldn't happen, especially not in the FINAL DUNGEON. Hell, the tumbleweed that I complained blurred into the desert is now a Snowball or somesuch and blends into the snow. I'm not sure how much of that is meant to be funny.

There's not a lot of landmarks to this dungeon either. Even Megaman Sprite Game's final dungeon had a very definite sense of progress, a sense of direction. This is so much wandering around through the same boring white halls. Some variety can make these dungeons really feel awesome, think about all the weird slime in Kefka's Tower. I ran into slime Cheney (and a reference to his quail hunting incident which you might remember from ten years ago. The jokes are STILL dated, god!) who had apparently been a recurring boss. He had like 8 textboxes worth of intro, and after a lengthy battle I managed to win. After that battle? Nothin! No textbox, no explosion, no "You haven't seen the last of me!", Nothin! The party didn't even move back to their default stance, they just stood there in their "Pre-boss battle cutscene" pose till I took a step and they rejoined the catapillar. A little fanfare woulda been cool, especially after so much preamble.

My final beef is that there's a guy outside the final dungeon who sells items... a limited supply of items. Why limit it? Have all the other shops limited it and I'm just too stupid to notice? I swear to God I had like 53 taquitos when I quit playing in Twoson. Why am I limited to buying 10 of 'em now at the end of the game, when money should be no object? What if I run out of 'em in there? There's no way back to town, all that limit is doing is saying "If you don't have enough taquitos now, you're NEVER going to win". There were some water fountains and slime in the dungeon to heal from, so I don't think it's possible to get stuck, but it's playing it risky. There's no reason to risk it, I would be furious if I had played like ten hours to get here and got stuck in this area with no way to buy more healing items.

The Jeopardy! minigame is really cool, but I was able to win my first two tries having only played a fraction of the game. It makes me feel like I wasn't missing very much, and the stuff that I didn't know didn't sound like something I'd want to go back and see. Every time I've tried this game before, I've always felt bad when I quit, like maybe the good part is just around the corner and I'll see what everyone's been talking about. Having played Chapter 6, I don't feel that way. I'm now pretty sure that's just the way the game is.

I feel like I've said this before, but I don't think the game is *badly* designed, like, I don't think it's an accident it is the way it is. I think this game is deliberately how Fnrrrf wants it, and if that means Fnrrrf is the only one who really enjoys it, so be it. I think the random encounters are a bit too frequent, a bit too slow, and require way too much to strategy to pop up as often as they do, but Fnrrrf's been playing this game forever and he's acclimatized. It's his game, and if he wants to be challenged by it, that's his perogative. I don't enjoy it very much, but Iv'e played worse.

Gizmog · Post by **Gizmog** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:25 pm

And as promised, the rest:

James Doppler Science Etc: 2 out of 10

Battles were really slow, story was profane without much redeeming humor. It was picking up towards the end, but still a pretty bad showing.

Dragons!: 3 out of 10

Hideously paced, no story, no incentive, and then you get to the next area and it's the same enemies in the same pattern with a new palette. Had some noble attempts at dungeon design and battle balance, but needs major story love before this kind of a grind is tolerable.

The Pumpkin Warriors: 6 out of 10

It's an alpha-build with a lot of potential. Some cosmetic bugs prevent it from being really impressive, and it's SUPER obviously unfinished. Perfectly middle of the road OHR Game, won't know which way it's going till it's finished. One of the few games I wanted to finish. Dockin' a point for dying before the first textbox.

T4R4D1DDL3: Abstained

I'm not comfortable calling this an RPG. I think accepting it sets a dangerous precedent towards pretentious "art games", which are worse than joke games because at least joke games are funny and tell you when they're over. I didn't dislike this game, it was beautiful and an interesting experience, I'd love to see more games like it (not TOO many), but I don't know that I'd call it Heart of the OHR Contest material either. I do think this is what the OHR, and amateur game making is all about, though. Just don't like how it fits into the contest (Which is the contest's fault, I guess).

Troll Over: 1 out of 10

Mostly boring walk through the woods. Doesn't seem to know what it wants to be, so it isn't anything. Needs to listen to that Katy Perry song.

Mr. Triangle's Adventure: 5 out of 10

Tries to emulate newbie games too hard and becomes a newbie game. Perhaps the prototype of OHR RPGs, warts included. Battles need speeding up, maps need shrunk.

Zero: Secret Pasts Collide: 5 out of 10

Does a lot of good stuff that covers up the warts. Tempted to dock a point just for that slimy scream effect. Am docking a point for the slimy save point placement early on that could force a person to go through the whole long intro again. Got invested in the story, distinct portraits make up for generic fantasy names. Otherwise would be impossible to understand. More games should try to go the extra mile with systems like this.

Winged Realm: 6 out of 10

Channels a lot of old school, maybe too much. Story's interesting enough to get you through some of the grindier bits, and inns and save points are convenient once you find 'em. Looking forward to better controls on the "I'm a bird and I can fly" kind of mechanics.

Stand: 4 out of 10

Too tech demo-y and short to give a lot of credit to. Gets a point for novelty, even if execution is a bit lacking.

Invasion of the Mantle Dwellers: 5 out of 10

A first effort and a last minute entrant, got some definite flaws but not a bad game. Docked a point for trapping the player in the garden, could be bad if you don't have the resources to fight through.

Spoonweaver · Post by **Spoonweaver** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:10 pm

Oke Doke (chapter 6):
I like this chapter's town more than some of the other's. However, the jeropardy gimmick didn't sit well with me because I was trying to just jump into chapter 6. Reminded me of those really old DRM's where you had to look stuff up int he game's manual in order to play.
The dungeon seems to be a testament to the game's slow moving pace. Fight after fight. Room after room. It was all quite the grind. Which is I guess what you'd expect from a final dungeon. Considering the nature of the game though, I expected more here. The town's design was better than the dungeons by far. I died several times int he dungeon and sort of gave up. I'll assume this was mostly because I was unfamiliar with the different attack options and spending the time to figure them out resulted in major losses. Overall, I'd say this last chapter wasn't as good as what I played before.
5/10

Batman & Robin (joker mode):
Joker mode is pretty different from the rest of the game. The lack of the megaman like menu is a big loss. The dungeon itself is much less of a one note gimmich though. The whole thing is much more story based too.
I never found a place to heal or anything so I guess I was just suppose to blast through this? I liked the death script.
5/10

Post by **TMC** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:29 pm

Pepsi Ranger wrote:
Willy Elektrix wrote:Pepsi: I'm going to need more time if I'm going to play all the entries. Is there any chance to get a deadline extension? How about until the end of the month?
Is this something everyone needs?

Hello. Sorry, I've been absent for most of a month, and I haven't been playing games. Luckily I have already played a few of the games last year, and I want to sit down and get through several more, if the deadine is extended at least two days (I'm too busy today). Either way I'm going to skip Okedoke because I want to replay that from the beginning, using the Chapter 6 save would spoil it. Good thing I've played through the original version of Batman and Robin already.

FnrrfYgmSchnish · Post by **FnrrfYgmSchnish** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:29 pm

Is this something everyone needs?

If I were to extend it, I'll do it only once more, and only if I'm given the sense that most people want this.

I figure I can probably get through at least most of the games between today and tomorrow, with the possible exception of Mr. Triangle since that's supposed to be a pretty long one. I've already poked around at Pumpkin Warriors a bit last night and will probably play through a little more of that one before trying to decide on my vote and then moving to the next one.

Having until the end of the week or something would probably make things a lot easier though.

I don't think it's an accident it is the way it is. I think this game is deliberately how Fnrrrf wants it, and if that means Fnrrrf is the only one who really enjoys it, so be it. I think the random encounters are a bit too frequent, a bit too slow, and require way too much to strategy to pop up as often as they do, but Fnrrrf's been playing this game forever and he's acclimatized. It's his game, and if he wants to be challenged by it, that's his perogative.

Y'know, I've actually had a thought along these lines myself lately--that maybe I've made the fights, random encounters in particular, a bit tougher than they really should be because I was so dead-set on avoiding the opposite problem (where almost all of a game's battles become way too easy as soon as you have good equipment and the appropriate levels, and it becomes just as easy to quickly wipe out every encounter as it is to hold ESC to run from them, causing you to just get even more overpowered as you unintentionally grind for experience by fighting all the weak-slime random encounters. Basically a game where you can literally win most battles by "holding the spacebar"... rather than getting slaughtered if you even so much as think about holding the spacebar like in most of post-Chapter 1 Okédoké. XD)

They don't seem too hard for me, but then again, that's probably not a fair standard to judge how hard the battles are since most of the time I'm able to beat the final boss of the game with my entire party at level 14 if I give them the right equipment (and meanwhile, others are getting killed repeatedly by Chapter 6's random battles at level 20.)

Already knowing the inner workings of all the different attacks (for example, I'm not still relying much on Señor Death's elemental hand spells, which haven't been very useful since back in Chapter 3 when he hadn't started to get his stronger spells yet, when his all-around-better Heck Flame, Chiller, and Thunderball are available) and what different enemies are vulnerable or resistant to is kind of an unfair advantage there.

I don't think I'll doing any massive battle rebalancing to the current 8-bit-style version of Okédoké, but I'll have to keep the whole "oh yeah, other people are going to be playing this game too and they don't already know everything about it" thing in mind when I get around to that no-longer-8-bit remake of the game that I plan on making at some point in the future.

Gizmog · Post by **Gizmog** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:23 pm

FnrrfYgmSchnish wrote:...I was so dead-set on avoiding the opposite problem (where almost all of a game's battles become way too easy as soon as you have good equipment and the appropriate levels, and it becomes just as easy to quickly wipe out every encounter as it is to hold ESC to run from them, causing you to just get even more overpowered as you unintentionally grind for experience by fighting all the weak-slime random encounters. Basically a game where you can literally win most battles by "holding the spacebar"... rather than getting slaughtered if you even so much as think about holding the spacebar like in most of post-Chapter 1 Okédoké. XD)

Ahhh, that explains a lot. We come from different schools. I've always looked at random encounters as like the toll booth to the rest of the game and a way to teach the player some kind of mechanic they might need later. How many games have an "undead" town, where you start to learn how magic works? I like it when the first battles in an area are a real struggle, so that later on when you've got the equipment and the levels to move forward and you're bulldozing it, you feel like the cock of the walk.

I did like your critical attack system! That's a good way to keep Fight useful, and give the player hope in longer battles that they might land that lucky hit. As for FireHand/FrostHand/Etc. I was afraid it might be something like that. A lot of big games do it, but it always bugs me when you've got spells hangin' around that are no longer any use. I'd love to see a game some day where Fire2 is just an upgrade to Fire, and it doesn't cost you more money and Fire doesn't hang around as some impotent bum who likes to watch Fire 2 do his job better. The flamin' skulls for Heck Flame were awesome by the way, better than the ones in Doom RPG even.

Pepsi Ranger · Post by **Pepsi Ranger** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:21 am

Gizmog wrote:Your ruling on the votes helps a lot though, thanks. I'm working on my votes now. Before you posted that, I came to the conclusion that the best way for me to vote was probably going to be to treat the save games as if they were sequels to games that I'd never played.

Ugh, no. I hope I'm not implying that.

Gizmog wrote:Fortunately I was worrying for nothing, as Batman's Joker Edition is pretty self contained and is the only new content. OkeDoke raises some bigger issues.. it feels weird to judge the final dungeon as if it were the first dungeon in a new game. Contextually they're different things, like... as a dungeon the place is big and same-y, which is bad but not terrible... but as a FINAL Dungeon, the payoff to all of the game that's lead up to it... that's kind of slimy.

Part of my complaint is that I've always been of the opinion that choosing to quit is a valid form of commentary. If a game doesn't hold your interest, or quits holding your interest at a certain point, then that's a hugely important thing the author needs to know. I don't want to seem like I'm playing favorites or trolling though, so I try to "gut it out" longer and give a game every possible chance to redeem itself. That's why I'm asking questions about Batman and Robin in here instead of just writing it off as a typical RMZ boner. It seems wrong in a way, to vote on the last 30 minutes of a game if you would never in a million years reach that point by natural choice.

Yeah, I can see where that would be difficult, and now that we have a Heart of the OHR where the new content is actually getting considered (as a separate entity? as part of a whole?) for vote, and that these technicalities do exist if a voter chooses not to play the whole game, or chooses to ignore the early areas in favor of the new stuff, I'm presented with new considerations for the future of rereleased content in a Heart of the OHR contest. If we do this again in 2016, I'm gonna have to really think about how best to handle rereleases at voting time in a way that considers how voters would naturally play.

I think I said this in the 2014 in Review thread, but I do absolutely think that quitting early is a valid criticism of a game, and I think that's especially true in a contest for reviews. That's why I think your quitting early should be reflected in the score.

Remember, I said vote however you think is fair. I want to be careful about "forcing" people to play something they don't want to play for the sake of votes. That's not what this is about, and it's also why we have averages rather than totals for scoring. If you can't bother to make it to the new content of a rereleased game, your vote should reflect that. What I'd rather not see (and again, I can't police this because you have a right to your own opinion) is voters scoring exclusively on content that wasn't made for this contest in order to give a decent score while avoiding the time or effort it takes to get to the new stuff. I find that the more I defend this position, the more it seems like I'm championing the new content only, and part of me is trying to champion new content, or else I wouldn't permit rereleases into the contest. What I want to champion is the game in its entirety, though that often means supporting something that could take many, many hours to get through. I'm not entirely sure I have no regrets including rereleases into this contest because this can get ridiculously confusing when the whole game is not accounted for. But, I guess what I'm saying is, because the new stuff is still what makes an entry eligible for this contest, a failure to play up to the new stuff (because of lack of interest rather than time) should impact the score. Heck, I'd advocate that for the original releases, too. If you reach a point where you could go on, but would rather not, and it has nothing to do with the fact that you're out of time, that should also be reflected in the score.

I'm a fan of grading for effort. I think it's better to encourage authors who have potential than to tear them down because you hit a boring patch in their game. But sometimes you have to score harshly because sometimes that boring patch kills both the experience and the game.

Bottom line is that you should bow out if it's a natural choice and score accordingly. No one's gonna expect a high mark out of you if that's what happens. If you bow out early because you get bored, yet you give it an 8 because you liked the content the author put in five years ago--he just lost you during Dungeon #3 (kind of like what happened to me in Spellshard)--that's the part that should feel wrong for this contest.

I applaud you for giving Chapter 6 a go. Personally, I was impressed with it based on how it compared to the rest of the game (which I played). But I can see how by itself it may not impress as much. This validates your earlier argument about context. I don't know that you would've felt differently about it had you gotten there after playing Chapters 1-5. Perhaps we'll never know because you got tired of it after Chapter 2. But the fact that in 2014, you're still quitting after Chapter 2 says something about the game and your opinion about it. You should consider that in your vote.

Eh, the more I give this stuff thought, the more I think I need to reform how we approach rereleases in the future.

The crazy thing is that Okedoke wasn't originally supposed to go up for a vote. As a Legends release, it was supposed to be included on prestige only. But Spoonweaver asked a valid question: Why include it in the contest if it's not up for vote, or eligible for a prize?

Second Bottom Line: Heart of the OHR is itself a work-in-progress that still needs refinement. That's partly why I listen to you guys so attentively, and why I change the guidelines as often as I do. I want this to become a contest that people not only look forward to, but can make perfect sense of it. It may not happen on my watch (one of these days I do plan to hand the keys over to a new host), but hopefully it will happen.

Gizmog wrote:I'm sorry I can't explain what I mean. I'll try an example.. let's say our entries were Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6 SNES. THE BEST YEAR EVER! Chrono Trigger picks up the casual vote and wins, there's some controversy, but nothin' too rough. Next time the field is Final Fantasy 6 GBA and one of those SEGA rpgs that nobody played. The guys who made that SEGA RPG worked really really hard and made, you know, a decentish game. The guys who made FF6 mucked up their graphics and music, added a boss gauntlet and a bonus dungeon. FF6 is still the superior game, but the addition wasn't the greatest thing in the world. Are we meant to crown FF6 as the Eternal GodKing of OHR, or are we meant to encourage the new games that are carrying the torch?

I think you're explaining yourself just fine. It only seems like you're not because you're addressing an issue that comes with holes. To address your example, though, I think in this case, FF6 would be the inferior entry because it's a half-assed effort compared to the effort put on by Sega. But which did you enjoy more? If you enjoyed FF6's lame extra dungeon more than you did Sega's entire game, then you should give FF6 the higher score. If you didn't play the new dungeon and just stuck with the content you played five years ago, then score based on that, you're not being fair to either game. If you play all of FF6, including the new tacked-on mediocre content, then you should keep the new content in mind when you place your score. Did the new content make the game better, worse, or keep it the same? In other words, what's your overall opinion of the game once you've played everything it offers? What if you were to play only the new content? How would you compare it to Sega's original game?

As you can see, these questions are more philosophical than they are solvable. I can't tell you how to score one or the other. In this case, you'd have to go with your gut.

I realize you've already got your answers on these issues, but I wanted to respond anyway in case we (not you specifically, but voters in general) go down this road again in 2016. I'll need something to refer back to.

Gizmog wrote:I love so much of the concept of this contest. I love that it tries to recognize the guys who're doing it right, takin' the long road, and that it tries to encourage them to finish the job. I love that it invites so much discussion as to what the community is, what we should encourage and what we should discourage, and most of all I love that it makes people think critically about games and how to make them the best that they can be.

I don't mean any disrespect to you personally, to the community, to anyone who made games or anyone who's voted. There's just something that feels weird about voting like this. I regret that the two re-releases this year are Fnrrrf and RMZ, two guys I've historically feuded with, because it makes this seem like something petty which it isn't. If a game still has problems 4 years after its initial release, I think that's a fair complaint. Likewise, if a game has improved by leaps and bounds in that timespan, I think that's also a fair thing to praise?

Thanks for the compliment. I originally conceptualized the contest out of frustration over the trends we were seeing near the close of the last decade, among other reasons, so I'm still mind-blown that it's caught on. I'm glad people are using it as an excuse to improve the quality of their games.

As far as your complaint goes, I was making the same point to another community member (or was it here on the forums?--I don't remember) that you're making: If a game has the same problems it's had for years after its initial release, then it should receive the criticism it receives. I hope my response a few paragraphs up validates your opinion on this matter. But yeah, I agree with you on that.

But while we're on the topic of improvement, I want to chime in that sometimes a game can't easily improve its faults, even after four years, if it means changing the game.

One of the worst pieces of advice I got about ways to improve my game came from Charbile (and I need to reiterate that there are things he's said in reviews of my games that I've taken to heart and even tried to fix because I thought they were valid points that deserved an address, so I don't want to sound like I'm throwing him under the bus here; I do respect most of his opinions, especially in hindsight, but not this particular one). Rather than paraphrase, I'll just quote him directly regarding what he had said about Powerstick Man (I think it was for the older version):

Charbile, via Castle Paradox, 'A Limited Edition' Thread, on October 30, 2009 wrote:What I would change is the main character and the entire plot. It seems like an artifact of homemade comics we all drew when we were kids, and maybe wasn't the best of ideas, but seemed really neat at the time. Given the different intros involving the dude who can't be bothered to play a game, it seems like that would be a more interesting thing to explore. Ala at the risk of manipulation.

Changing the main character and entire plot is basically the same thing as saying scrap your game and make something else. When you've built a game taking eight hours or more to finish, that you've worked on (at the time) for about three years, and your criticism against you is that you didn't make a game based on a character that your critic would've chosen instead, it's pretty much a stupid argument to make, and changing it now would be pointless, if not utterly disheartening, and none of us is paid for our work, so really, it's terrible advice.

I bring that up because some games really are in that same predicament. Consider Okedoke. We know that the primary reason most people think low of it is because it focuses on juvenile and offensive humor. If that were the case in a handful of places, it would make sense for Fnrrf to go back and make a few changes in an effort to keep it accessible, especially if most everything else is either great (graphics) or acceptable (gameplay). But if everything about the game was built on a foundation of bad jokes, then it's a bit tougher to change the tone without dismantling the entire project. Not so easy to do, is it?

I could say the same thing about Mr. Triangle and the wide open maps. Are they too vast and empty? Yes. Would paring them down take a tremendous and potentially thankless effort? Yes. Would filling them in with more details help? Absolutely. Will that fix the problem? I don't know; we haven't seen that happen yet.

There are too many variables when it comes to fixing areas of games we've already built and moved on from. It's easy to fix a story by starting over, but not so much an RPG, not when the core complaint is the foundation itself.

I'm not saying this to justify an opinion that you should give an author the benefit of the doubt and plod through his game anyway. I'm just saying that sometimes the criticism is better served for the next game he makes than it is for the current one he's trying to finish.

Gizmog wrote:Batman & Robin is a game that was already finished, wasn't it? And we're judging it on bonus content. The sequel theory holds water here, where if RMZ had released this game seperately as Joker & Harley it'd be a totally different discussion. I've never played the main game of Batman & Robin, so it feels weird to judge it. If 2 years from now he tacks on "Commissioner Gordon & Sergeant O'Hara" mode, is it going to feel weird to not factor in Joker and Harley mode and Batman and Robin mode?

As I said elsewhere a long time ago (and I'm not gonna bother to hunt down the reference), every Heart of the OHR produces a unique situation that forces us to consider the nuances of each rule. In this example, I would argue that this could've been a sequel, and probably doesn't need the original game in context. I still haven't gotten to Joker Mode, but based on your review of it, I think it deserves to be judged on its own, and I would've accepted it as an original entry had RMZ packaged it that way. I'd do the same for the Commissioner Gordon add-on. But he didn't package it that way, so I think this goes back to the original argument: What do you think is fair?

It's a moot point because you've already given it a score, and I think you're at peace about it. But again, for future reference, I think you could treat content like Joker Mode as a sequel if that's what it takes for you to give it a fair vote. Because RMZ packaged it as a standalone adventure, in spite of it being part of the Batman and Robin game file, I think it's fair to play Joker Mode only and vote on it without even touching the base game. Doesn't seem like the context is lost in this case.

Exceptions to every rule...

Gizmog wrote:And then there's the worst possibility which is that someday someone finishes their game, and tacks on 30 minutes of Britney Spears music videos every HOTOHR to keep some kind of weird street cred going.

No, I'd have to disqualify that. We don't have it as a rule yet because no one, including Spoonweaver, has attempted to challenge it (and this isn't an invitation, Spoon :p), but I would implement a "no trolling" rule if we were ever faced with a situation like that. And it would have to be a legitimate problem. If one person rereleases a game in 2016 with 30 minutes of Britney Spears at the end, I'd expect the voters to pay their respects through their votes. If it keeps happening, I'd make it a concrete rule effective immediately: no trolling. (But just to be clear, submitting Troll Over 2: Troller Coaster is perfectly fine.)

Gizmog wrote:It's probably not going to change anything this time around. I was very afraid that the last chapter of Oke Doke would be stupendously good, and I would be left to debate whether or not it was worth the time in purgatory to get to those pearly gates, not knowing that they were going to be there.

Not just to slime on OkeDoke either. I didn't finish most of the games this time around and with a few exceptions, I didn't WANT to finish most of them. This year's field had a lot of flaws, a lot of games that were trying to be "EPIC" and "REAL RPG" rather than trying to be FUN. The game I liked the most isn't even on the list because it's a "joke" but we've got a game on there that might not even be a game, just a pretentious pile of graphics!

I think that's a fair criticism that hopefully this year's entrants will take to heart.

Just to be clear, I have no problem with 2014 being known as the year where every Heart of the OHR game scored low. Just vote honestly. There's no need to please anyone here.

Gizmog wrote:I quit probably an hour into Chapter 6, when I found myself in a room where I can't run from battle and every step I trigger another battle. I've been able to run from identical battles in the rest of this dungeon, but this one room is mysteriously a no-run zone. The battles still take forever, though the new girl has some interesting spells. Everyone has a lot of techniques and it's difficult to tell what the point is to some of them. Flaming Fart still seems to be the best bet, and Flaming Hand/Shock Hand/Etc. don't seem to do too much. I realize some of this is the result of diving into the deep end, but end game should have some more obvious nukes.

I didn't find this area particularly fun, either (battles are my least favorite things in Okedoke, and being forced to stick with them was pretty lame), but I do find the reason these areas are unescapable fairly clever. Based on my understanding, these areas are in quarters too tight for escape. My strategy was to avoid small, enclosed rooms as often as possible.

Gizmog wrote:I feel like I've said this before, but I don't think the game is *badly* designed, like, I don't think it's an accident it is the way it is. I think this game is deliberately how Fnrrrf wants it, and if that means Fnrrrf is the only one who really enjoys it, so be it. I think the random encounters are a bit too frequent, a bit too slow, and require way too much to strategy to pop up as often as they do, but Fnrrrf's been playing this game forever and he's acclimatized. It's his game, and if he wants to be challenged by it, that's his perogative. I don't enjoy it very much, but Iv'e played worse.

I'm pretty sure the acclimatization is a problem we all have with our games. It's why we not only need playtesters, but why we need to consider their feedback.

Gizmog wrote:T4R4D1DDL3: Abstained

I'm not comfortable calling this an RPG. I think accepting it sets a dangerous precedent towards pretentious "art games", which are worse than joke games because at least joke games are funny and tell you when they're over. I didn't dislike this game, it was beautiful and an interesting experience, I'd love to see more games like it (not TOO many), but I don't know that I'd call it Heart of the OHR Contest material either. I do think this is what the OHR, and amateur game making is all about, though. Just don't like how it fits into the contest (Which is the contest's fault, I guess).

This one wasn't originally supposed to be part of the contest, and even now it's under the "unconfirmed" category. I decided to include it based entirely on an argument that TMC had made in favor of it. In 2016, I'll be revising the rules slightly to allow for more games like this.

The short answer is that it made the cut for being most like an OHR game made in 1998. There's really no other reason for it being in this contest. I really wasn't in favor of including initially, but came around to the argument when I reexamined what the true "heart" of the OHR is. I figure it's something we can debate more constructively whenever we start the next one.

TMC wrote:Hello. Sorry, I've been absent for most of a month, and I haven't been playing games. Luckily I have already played a few of the games last year, and I want to sit down and get through several more, if the deadine is extended at least two days (I'm too busy today). Either way I'm going to skip Okedoke because I want to replay that from the beginning, using the Chapter 6 save would spoil it. Good thing I've played through the original version of Batman and Robin already.

Okay, that's three in favor of extension. Anybody else?

If I gave you until next weekend, would that be long enough?

Remember, you don't have to vote for everything.

FnrrfYgmSchnish wrote:Having until the end of the week or something would probably make things a lot easier though.

Oh, okay, so one in favor of next weekend.

Gizmog wrote:I like it when the first battles in an area are a real struggle, so that later on when you've got the equipment and the levels to move forward and you're bulldozing it, you feel like the cock of the walk.

There's a game I bought on Steam sometime ago that has this same idea of throwing you, a newbie, into a harsh world that does basically nothing to help you along on your quest to rise up and become the king of the hill, but rather expects you to rise up on your own accord. It's a squad-based RPG called Kenshi, where you basically tell your own story, building yourself up as a swordsman, a hero, a thief, a town builder, and so on. It's still in Alpha, so many of its planned features are still MIA, but what it has currently is pretty impressive. It's a single player game that looks like an MMO, but definitely is not. I've had lots of fun with it. It's definitely limited compared to the game it promises to become, but worth the time, I think. Not sure when it'll go on sale again (I bought it at 40% discount last summer), but if you can catch it on sale, it's one you should consider if you like that kind of play style. Here's its home page if you want to read more about it:

http://lofigames.com/

I don't know if it's for everyone, but it's right up my alley.

Okay, I think that's a long enough wall of text for one evening.

Gizmog · Post by **Gizmog** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:46 am

Pepsi Ranger wrote:Okay, I think that's a long enough wall of text for one evening.

Haha! It is indeed a fantastic wall of text. Between it and Fnrrrf's response, I'm feeling a lot better about my verdicts. Thanks for taking the time to type it up.

FnrrfYgmSchnish · Post by **FnrrfYgmSchnish** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:30 am

The crazy thing is that Okedoke wasn't originally supposed to go up for a vote. As a Legends release, it was supposed to be included on prestige only.

Yeah, if I had known from the beginning that it would definitely be voted on and such just like a "regular" entry I probably wouldn't have submitted it as part of the contest actually... mostly because it felt weird having Okédoké in the same contest twice when it was already a rerelease the first time.

Of course, I'm not going to even think about dropping it out now or anything (if I was going to do that it would've been way back when the decision was made to make it a "vote on this one too" game after all) so don't worry, those who've already played it and voted. XD

As for FireHand/FrostHand/Etc. I was afraid it might be something like that. A lot of big games do it, but it always bugs me when you've got spells hangin' around that are no longer any use. I'd love to see a game some day where Fire2 is just an upgrade to Fire, and it doesn't cost you more money and Fire doesn't hang around as some impotent bum who likes to watch Fire 2 do his job better.

Yeah, it wasn't 100% intentional but it did pretty much end up with the Hands just being inferior versions of his other elemental spells, only useful until he learns the better ones, and then just kinda sitting there in the spell list and only coming out when you can't afford the better ones.

Flame Hand and Shock Hand at least have different side-effects from the stronger elemental spells (Flame Hand can lower defense, Shock Hand can stun... while Heck Flame and Thunderball are more focused on spreading heavier damage out to multiple enemies)... but Freeze Hand just becomes completely obsolete as soon as Chiller shows up, since they both have the same speed-lowering side-effect and Chiller's damage is way, way higher.

They could be less crappy if there were more enemies around with high defenses against magic, but not against physical attacks; the Hand spells are about the only attacks in the game that have mismatched attack/defense stats (Power vs. Defense rather than Power vs. Wisdom like all other magic), so in the case of an enemy with high Wisdom but little or no Defense they would be a better choice.

If I ever make another game with Señor Death in it (or at least somebody with similar attacks) I'll try to work that kind of enemy in so those three spells don't become completely obsolete once he gets the stronger ones.

Pepsi Ranger · Post by **Pepsi Ranger** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:50 am

FnrrfYgmSchnish wrote:Yeah, if I had known from the beginning that it would definitely be voted on and such just like a "regular" entry I probably wouldn't have submitted it as part of the contest actually... mostly because it felt weird having Okedoke in the same contest twice when it was already a rerelease the first time.

Of course, I'm not going to even think about dropping it out now or anything (if I was going to do that it would've been way back when the decision was made to make it a "vote on this one too" game after all) so don't worry, those who've already played it and voted. XD

The main reason I changed my mind on this is because Spoonweaver couldn't figure out why he should bother to release another update to Legendary Heroes (a game he said he'd work on during Heart of the OHR windows, but not this one evidently) if it's not going to be voted on. I don't want anyone ceasing development on their games because the contest no longer recognizes them as votables (TM pending), just like I don't want anyone withholding their games just to make the contest. I don't want Heart of the OHR to be responsible for the games we don't get, if that makes sense.

But if you stand in the opposite corner and say that you wouldn't have entered it if you knew it would receive votes, then it's obvious that we need a plan for 2016 that accounts for both sides, as you and Spoonweaver stand on opposite sides of the fence here.

So, starting in 2016, I'll make Legends a voluntary votable. In other words, if you want to include it in the vote, it'll be included. If you want to post it strictly for the prestige, then it will be listed as a prestige entry (which abstains it from the voting process). When I had briefly released The Adventures of Powerstick Man: Extended Edition in the final weeks of Heart of the OHR 2010, I did so to christen the concept of the contest without actually putting it up for vote. I had actually planned to do it again this year, but I still have a major unfinished area that I would rather leave closed off to the public, so I left it alone.

I don't expect to have all the kinks in the Heart of the OHR ironed out by 2016 since there's always somebody who manages to expose yet another wrinkle, but I do think that's one thing we can do to keep Legends authors happy in the future.