Contest: Ultimate Challenge

Make games! Discuss those games here.

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sotrain515
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Post by sotrain515 »

Mogri wrote:So what are you looking for when you ask for an "incredibly difficult" game?
I would say that your I Wanna Be the Guy example is illustrative of increased difficulty, whereas your Dragon Warrior example is just increased frustration. Both are outside the player's control, yes, but the challenge from the first can be prepared for (I assume, not really familiar with IWBTG) while in the second you've just arbitrarily added a frustrating chance that the player will lose through no fault of their own (I'm assuming the Dragonlord is the end boss; haven't played DW either...).

TVTropes has an article called "Fake Difficulty" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... Difficulty) that I think illustrates the difference between "frustration-based" difficulty and "challenge-based" difficulty to coin some phrases... Your DW one definitely falls under the second heading as the outcome cannot be reasonably determined by player input.
It is exactly the same game on Impossible difficulty that it is on Medium, except that losing sets you back further. The game's challenge has not increased, but it punishes failure much more harshly.
I have to disagree with this. If we are defining "beating the game" as the challenge, surely the challenge has increased by decreasing the number of checkpoints? It is now more difficult to reach the end because I must replay more of the game after dying, right? Again, not familiar with IWBTG other than very generally.

E: VVV Oh, agreed. That's why I added a "beating the game" caveat. Put another way: if you reduce the life count at the start of Battletoads to 1 you've made Battletoads as a game harder without doing the same for Ragnarok's Canyon.
Last edited by sotrain515 on Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mogri
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Post by Mogri »

The moment-to-moment challenge is exactly the same, though. It's not like Dracula is a tougher boss on Impossible; it's just that you'll have to play through the entire game to that point if you slip up.
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Bob the Hamster
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Post by Bob the Hamster »

I was thinking about difficulty in Roguelikes, and about different ways that frustration and success can be balanced against one another.

I tend to enjoy it when after succeeding, I feel as if I have solved a puzzle

I tend to not enjoy it very much when after succeeding, I feel as if I have won a lottery.

Both types of challenge are not mutually exclusive, and I can think of plenty of games that mix them to good effect.
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Meowskivich
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Post by Meowskivich »

I am in a creative slump :zombie:
I have about 5 or so levels done, and I can show off a bit of them, if anyone is interested.
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Feenicks
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Post by Feenicks »

Slow down dude, it's barely been 2 days. The only real concrete thing I've done so far is decide to change out who the main characters were going to be.
Because man, I really like my harpies.
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Post by Spoonweaver »

I like the debate about game difficulty going on here.
Mogri brings up some pretty solid puts.

Video Game difficulty is at times handled in a way that either involved luck or learning. The luck factor brings up fond notions of old arcade games that sort of "cheated" because there were times when a series of random events would amount to some sort unavoidable enemy attack.These games were considered super difficult. However, if you were lucky enough you could sail right through the game on your first try.

The other type of difficulty that some people see as "cheating" is the IWTBTG type difficulty. For those of you not aware, I want to be the guy is a side scrolling guy where just about everything kills you in some sort of way. An apple that you think will fall on you and kill you like the rest of the appls in the game might actually fall up and kill you instead. Those spikes that you can fall on and die might actually be spikes htat shoot up and kill you when you try to jump over. You really never know what will happen when you play IWTBTG. You have to play the game and basically fail in order to learn what needs to be done. So this kind of game requires a large amount of learning.

A type of difficulty that is a lot like learning is persistence. This type of difficulty is sometimes not even seen as difficulty. Persistence is basically when a game requires a large amount of time to get through. It's normally accompanied by repetitive activities. Things like walking back and forth between goals or grinding find their home here. This is one of the most used difficulty types in RPG's and is seen as frustrating sometimes.

Another type of difficulty that some might possibly see as frustrating is pin point control difficulty. IWTBTG happens to have this type of difficulty too. A more common example of this type of difficulty would be something like super meat boy. Missing jumps by a pixel or two can be pretty frustrating and it gets more and more frustrating every die you fail. This type of difficulty is increased by penalty for death. Some games will start you off right before the jump that you keep dieing on, but others will make you play from the beginning of the stage. In this way it's sort of a two staged type of difficulty.

The last type I can think of would be a puzzle. This type involves learning but can't normally be overcome by simply trying again and again like the type I described before. However, even this type can be considered frustrating at times.


So, who cares? What am I getting at? Well basically I'm just trying to say that frustration in difficulty is pretty subjective. It might be the hardest game ever that uses all these types to their extremes. But would it just be considered "cheating"?
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Post by Meowskivich »

Pheonix wrote:Slow down dude, it's barely been 2 days. The only real concrete thing I've done so far is decide to change out who the main characters were going to be.
Because man, I really like my harpies.
I WILL DOMINATE THE GAMING MARKET, MWAR! Or rather, I counted, and I technically only have 3 levels done. The other two are just relaxed areas is all. But that does not excuse my creative slump. I have 7 or 12 more to go, I forget how many levels I put on the world map that I wanted.
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Willy Elektrix
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Post by Willy Elektrix »

Mogri and sotrain515 have touched upon some important considerations in this contest. I will refrain from commenting too much. As the sole judge, I would hate to reveal my preferences too much and have people try to cater to them.

However, you are all on the right track. Exploring the various ways challenge can be created and manipulated is what this contest is all about. Everything should be considered: What is the goal of the game? How difficult is the game to learn? How badly does it punish failure? How much does it rely on memorization? How much coordination does it require? How much logic does it require? The factors that affect difficulty seem endless.
Last edited by Willy Elektrix on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Meowskivich
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Post by Meowskivich »

11 stages is what I have left to do, and then this level pack will be ready to distribute. I will power through it all.
AND YOU'LL SEE! YOU'LL ALLLLL SEE! MEOWSKIVICH IS BEST AT PLATFORMERS, AND NONE CAN DENY!!!!
also, I got a decent idea for a level, woo
Last edited by Meowskivich on Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Meowskivich
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Post by Meowskivich »

Image
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Meowskivich
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Post by Meowskivich »

Two levels drawn, one of which is nearly completed. That'll be 6 stages done afterwards. I hope you like water levels.
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RMSephy
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Post by RMSephy »

Meowskivich wrote:water levels.
My opinion of you has just taken a nosedive.
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Meowskivich
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Post by Meowskivich »

And why is that?
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RMSephy
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Post by RMSephy »

The only good water levels are the ones involving swimsuits and bikinis.
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Meowskivich
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Post by Meowskivich »

well you're in luck...
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