Possibility of a "Backdrop Editor"?

KF Harlock · Post by **KF Harlock** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:20 pm

Hiya.

Just wondering about the feasibility of a "backdrop editor" that can be run inside CUSTOM?

From talking to other people, I get the idea that I'm in the minority here, but I greatly enjoy using the CUSTOM interface to draw pixel art. The ability to use the keyboard to move around the image and place pixels makes a huge difference to me, and I just vastly prefer it over the mouse. So far, my quest to find an art program that lets you navigate a canvas pixel by pixel with the keyboard has been fruitless.

However, I sometimes want to draw things that are larger than the largest dimensions the game lets you draw in this way (80x80), such as Ninja Gaiden-esque cutscene things, or whatever. It would be great if you were able to directly draw backdrops (320x200) in the same fashion as anything else.

I realize this presents a problem in that the backdrop would take up the entirety of the program's resolution, and you'd have to have room for the palette and toolbar. However, maybe there could be a key for toggling the visibility of the palette and toolbar, as well as possibly a key or button for switching the position of them from, say, the upper right corner to the upper left corner or something (that way, while working in the upper right, you could move it to the left, and vice versa, or toggle it off to get a full view).

Any word on if this would be feasible/desirable to implement?
If not, perhaps someone has suggestions for a program that will let me draw with a defined palette and the keyboard?

FnrrfYgmSchnish · Post by **FnrrfYgmSchnish** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:30 pm

Well... you sort of can by making your backdrop as a tileset and then exporting the whole thing and re-importing as a backdrop, though that way you're restricted to editing 20x20 chunks at a time. That's how I usually make backdrops now, anyway.

An option to edit a bigger chunk of maptiles in the maptile editor at a time (like maybe an 80x80 block, or something) would probably make this a lot easier, though.

KF Harlock · Post by **KF Harlock** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:42 pm

Yeah, that works well in the end, and I sure have done my fair share of it over the years, but it's needlessly time-consuming to have to work 20x20 pixels at a time ;_;

By the by, you can already draw backdrops 80x80 at a time and then import them, if you piece them together in an external program (MS Paint would work, but something with layer support would be easier). I've done this a ton too, over the years. @_@

Meowskivich · Post by **Meowskivich** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:44 pm

I support this with great justice.

charbile · Post by **charbile** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:25 am

It's 2012, time to learn to draw with a wacom my good man!

I'd bite the bullet and use mspaint and a mouse (which i have) before ever considering doing 20x20 maptile piece work for a backdrop. Do you enjoy pain? The less colors you use, it's really not as painful. I do enjoy the editor for more detailed precise coloring though.

BMR · Post by **BMR** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:29 am

A Wacom to do pixel art? Sounds a bit overkill to me, but hey, to each his own. I find that when doing pixel art, I have much better control with a mouse, though I do agree somewhat with Harlock Hero and wish that I could do some editing in the GIMP using a keyboard like with CUSTOM.

Well, that, and I'm too cheap to buy a real Wacom, hehehe... All I've got is some cheap 4"x6" $30 graphics tablet that's prone to malfunctioning.

charbile · Post by **charbile** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:05 am

I'm honestly surprised GIMP doesn't have some way where you can use the keyboard.

And hey! My wacom is about the same size. Do want a bigger one, these things are great. If you zoom in far enough, it's not difficult to transition from the mouse to the pen for pixel work.

BMR · Post by **BMR** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:21 am

charbile wrote:And hey! My wacom is about the same size. Do want a bigger one, these things are great. If you zoom in far enough, it's not difficult to transition from the mouse to the pen for pixel work.

Yes, but you've got a Wacom, I've got this, not exactly the same quality, hehe...

But I'll give it a shot, always keen to learn new things, who knows, you just might convert me to pixeling with a tablet.

And aye, there should be a way to do keyboard work with the GIMP, I'll search around the documentation and stuff to see if there's a way, would be rather useful.

Ichiro · Post by **Ichiro** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:45 am

I'd use graphx2.

Nathan Karr · Post by **Nathan Karr** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:49 pm

This is something I've wanted for the past nine years of using the engine. Has nobody else really asked for this in all that time?

KF Harlock · Post by **KF Harlock** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:01 pm

Charbile, you old fox, I've got a Wacom that I use for digital painting/coloring, but trying to use it for pixelling is madness, MADNESS! You'd have to go back and edit all your lines for proper, um, "math-adherence", and if I'm gonna be doing that, I may as well draw pixel by pixel.

Ichiro, I've long heard of Grafx2, but my attempts to use it have found it pretty obtuse. Do you 1.) know for sure if it allows use of the keyboard, and 2. know of any good tutorials for it?

Post by **TMC** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:04 am

Harlock Hero wrote:From talking to other people, I get the idea that I'm in the minority here, but I greatly enjoy using the CUSTOM interface to draw pixel art.

Nathan Karr wrote:This is something I've wanted for the past nine years of using the engine. Has nobody else really asked for this in all that time?

Nope, it's been requested many, many times, and I think you two are likely actually in the majority here.

A backdrop editor was never feasible before, but the graphics editors are half a decade overdue for a complete rewrite. It will definitely be feasible afterwards. Especially since we wouldn't be restricted to 320x200 anymore. Editing multiple tiles at once is also badly needed.

On the recommendation of Neo, I'm now a big fan of GrafX2 and will probably never seriously use Custom's editors again. And there go the chances of me adding advanced stuff to them. It has already been argued for years that spending much effort on the graphics editors is a waste of time, since unlike other parts of the engine, you can use external programs instead.

However, one thing that initially annoyed me about GrafX2 is that even though it has full support for pixelating using only the keyboard, it's just not designed with it in mind, unlike Custom. Rather than directly selecting the current pixel with arrow keys, you actually move the mouse cursor via keyboard! Everything's a bit awkward. Palette colour selection is also much worse than in Custom*. At the very least, you'll need to change the keymapping a little, because by default the arrow keys move the viewport instead of the cursor. I was pretty furious initially, but eventually I realised that using the mouse and working at high zoom was better than the keyboard for me.

I don't know of any good tutorials. It took me several attempts to learn enough to become comfortable actually doing anything with GrafX2. Luckily nearly everything is well documented.

* There are only keys for selecting previous and next colours, which is a disaster if your palette contains vertical ramps. But eventually I learned that you can define custom colour sequences, and there are two more keys for moving in this sequence.

Spazman · Post by **Spazman** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:30 am

On subject, a backdrop editor would probably do nicely for the OHR. Granted you may have to work out pixel after pixel, but at least it's still earier to use than MS Paint, or some other editing tool.

Also, I've tried drawing out my own high-quality backdrops only to find that the OHR reduces their color amount, and leaves the image looking... quite... messy?

I already know of the current limitations of the program, but it couldn't hurt to have an option to include a backdrop editor, to avoid color reduction. Jus' sayin'.

BMR · Post by **BMR** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:58 pm

thespazztikone wrote:Also, I've tried drawing out my own high-quality backdrops only to find that the OHR reduces their color amount, and leaves the image looking... quite... messy?

Hmm, never had that problem when importing after making something in the GIMP, but we might be doing something differently?

Meowskivich · Post by **Meowskivich** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:35 pm

I've had said issue as well, namely and most importantly: light green showing as yellow O_o

I've had other issues with other colours in the past, but the above one's the most notable.