Entrepreneur Central

Make games! Discuss those games here.

Moderators: Bob the Hamster, marionline, SDHawk

Post Reply
User avatar
Pepsi Ranger
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Pepsi Ranger »

kylekrack wrote:Thank you for the response. I definitely feel like it all makes more sense now. I'll get to playing it when I'm done working on my own project for today.
Be sure to provide plenty of feedback on your experience. One thing no one's done yet is to write a "daily journal" of their activities. Example:

Code: Select all

My Coffee Making Journal

Day 1: Learned how to make coffee. Felt really accomplished, now that I've mastered an essential part of the game. Three of the eight customers who came to my line were jerks and wouldn't accept my coffee. That's okay. I gave them trash coffee. They deserved it. Made $12. Wish I'd made more. I really hope Pepsi Ranger redraws their sprites. They are Uuugly (note the capital "U").

Day 2: Now that I know what I'm doing, I feel more confident about my chances at success. I bought just the right ingredients (the ones I could afford), and I didn't feel the need to steal anything, as I still had some leftover items I stole the day before. My customers were better, too. No complaints. I even got a tip from one. Made over $20. Progress! Not sure I like that Lease Agent, though. He's a shark.

Day 3: Oh, a new map opened! Explored it for a bit. Impressed with the stuff available to buy. Was tempted to buy an Open Sign at the novelty shop (forget the name), but I wasn't sure how much I needed it. Is it a vanity item? Is it functional? I left it at the shop, but maybe I'll pick it up later. Continued to explore the area, saw there wasn't much to the north of the area (maybe it's still under construction for a future update?). I wasn't watching the clock, of course. Before I knew it, it was time for work, and I hadn't even stocked my ingredients for the day. Needless to say, the work day was awful. Upset just about everyone who came to my line when I told them I was out of this and out of that, and compensating by delivering one trash coffee after another. I'm such a bad barista.

Day 4: Who the f is the Coffee Critic, and why do I have to impress him??? I'm still trying to figure this crap out. And starting at home means I gotta walk father. This game...does it want me to fail??? Never mind, I was able to give the coffee critic a good cup, and he gave me a reward. Life is good.
And you get the idea.

I'm certainly not expecting it, but it would be nice to get something like this from someone.
kylekrack wrote:I was considering the whole hand-holding element. I didn't mean to suggest that there *should* be a checklist of things to start out, simply that I didn't have one, and got really lost, probably because I have a bad memory. It's clear that giving an easy victory is not the goal of this game. The way it throws in so suddenly did not set the bar low. I like that. It does feel more emotionally realistic that way, starting a business from scratch and figuring things out each step of the way. It is important to balance difficulty with player progression, though, especially when the player is first starting out. I can see how it could be difficult to know just what a newbie needs to get going without becoming too frustrated right off the bat. In fact, I can't even imagine how you end up balancing all of the resources in this game, it's huge.
Yeah, it isn't easy to balance everything, and the game keeps getting bigger, so my work isn't anywhere near finished. Fortunately, TMC gave me some tips on how to speed up the development process. I'm going to start rewriting the code after I finish building three of the shops I need for the next version and stocking the current empties.

My plan for the improved tutorial (aka the beginner tutorial) is to start three days before the contest between Buck and Chet is issued. These will be advanced by event, not by a game clock, so the player can take his sweet time figuring out how to play. Each day is broken up by story bits that require Buck to do something specific relative to his business venture. Miyagi will "train" him, of course. If Buck can make Miyagi five cups of good coffee in a row, for example, Miyagi will pass him for the day. Obviously, Miyagi will have his own ingredients that Buck can use for practice. I also plan to give Buck a starting stash of ingredients (courtesy of Miyagi) so that he can have a better business launch. I haven't worked out yet how this will be incorporated with the "throw you into the deep end" style of gameplay, nor how it'll be changed by difficulty. But I will. The idea is that by the time you get to Day 1, to the story, and to the business, you'll know essentially what you need to start effectively. Most likely, I'll set up a series of options at the start of the game to let you choose your beginning.

But this should hopefully help get new players on the right foot. Still, I don't want to set it up to be too easy. Unfortunately, I know the game well, so I know how to play it, and I don't have the objectivity I need to start it off in a way that befits new players without outright holding their hands. This is why I appreciate suggestions from those who have played it (and want to like it), both from those who are good at it and those who don't have the slightest clue what they're doing (but also understand that I don't want to hold their hand more than what's necessary to get them to Day 2). I've trained myself to ignore complaints from those who don't get the point, or feel it should be something it was never meant to be (like a traditional RPG).

Knowing that the systems in this game are mostly modeled after real life systems than after RPG systems should hopefully make decisions in the game easier. Would you buy that much coffee without other supplies to go with it (like cups or a filter, or the coffeepot itself) in real life? Would buying that much break your budget? If so, then maybe don't buy that much coffee, not unless you're sure you can get a decent return on your investment. (Eventually, you'll be able to borrow from a bank and even take out a credit card--the latter of which I've brainstormed and listed in my journal tonight, so it's a brand new feature-in-waiting--but these will also come with a debt system, so they aren't golden keys to success. But using them might help early on when money is tight and thievery isn't something you want to live by.) Of course, to know how successful you'll be depends on how well you know your clientele. If you know your shop isn't popular right now, then you probably don't want to overspend your budget. Even though I've provided a ton of statistics you can check to see how well you're doing, the game is designed to "play out" your statistics enough that you don't really need to check them. There are statistics in the game I forget are there because the game just speaks for itself. For example, if "dead hour" hits after the fourth customer leaves, you are not popular, and you will probably want to keep your supply purchases low until you can increase it. How do you increase it? Think about why you'd want to visit Buck's Coffee Pavilion in the first place, and what he would need to do to get you to come back, or what would make you hesitate to come back. Whatever you think of is what you'll want to put into practice. It's really common sense if you think about it from a real life perspective.

The hardest part is in navigating the menus. You should thank TMC for suggesting I only display items that are relevant to the moment (i.e. display only those items that are in your inventory). It was once a lot worse.

Anyway, my compromise between the beginner and the learn-by-failing (or succeed-by-reading-the-instructions) mechanic is to base the tutorial only on the coffee business, as that's the mainline feature. All of the side stuff, like doing chores, making smoothies (in v1.3--no need to worry about that now), investing in other businesses, etc., can be figured out by diving in and adapting. I think that's fair.
kylekrack wrote:That being said, I think just having easy access to a simple map of the city would help. Learning the layout of any area takes time, whether it's playing a new game, or moving to a new town IRL. With a map, there are at least landmarks to travel to for potential information grabbing.
Funny you should say that. I was just thinking the same thing after I responded to your last message. I kind of want to wait until larger resolutions are natively supported (right now they are in the secret menu, and you can't drag the edges to double the screen size if they're anything other than the default--I hope this is addressed soon), as I want to change the default screen size to 480x300 to make shop windows fit better on the screen, and I think a wider screen will allow me to better fit the whole map. Alternatively, I could upload a zipped .jpg or .png showing the implemented area with labels of each section. In fact, I may just do that anyway. I've been wanting to. Might be a fun way to kill an hour.

On a side note, there's a game I have on Steam called Kenshi that's whole purpose is to throw you into the deep end. It's one of my favorites (and one of the ones I have the most hours logged into--Terraria being the top at the moment). It's basically a squad-based RPG where you're no hero, just a man or woman thrown into a collapsed world who has a sword and nothing else. What you make of your life is up to you. Do you want to be a master swordsman who commands large armies and destroys empires? Or do you want to be a farmer? How about both? The game gives you so many options for advancing your character and navigating your place in the world that it's almost ridiculous. It's notorious for its difficulty, and its unwillingness to hold your hand. It's a brilliant game (though, it's still in alpha, as the developers recently moved the game to a new world map, and they've unlocked only two sections of it--I think there will be either nine or twelve blocks total--but these two blocks alone are massive and provide much to explore--and there are still plenty of bugs lingering). If you like games that don't care how much of a beginner you are and expect you to hit the ground running (even if you don't know what you're running toward), then I'd highly suggest looking into it. If you do, keep in mind that the developers still have a lot more to do before they call it finished, but what's there is great. It's also quite the moody game. I'm sure you can find videos of it on Youtube. Anything showing you vast desert dunes is from the old map, which I personally liked, so it's probably old. But the new one is much more diverse, and provides better pathfinding for long distance travel, and actually provides some lore. Anyway, off-topic, but worth sharing if you like open ended games that let you pick your hero's journey and don't care if you succeed or fail (like Entrepreneur).

Anyway, share your experience here. It helps me to know what the game still needs. And I will try to put a labeled map together and post it here as a temporary workaround. I don't really want to put it in the game until I can safely change it to 480x300 and zoom it to twice the screen size.
Place Obligatory Signature Here
User avatar
Pepsi Ranger
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Pepsi Ranger »

Here, I took a map I made last year and modified it with labels and things. If you click on the image, it should take you to the hosted photo. From there you can download the image for the highest quality.

Image

You can alternatively (and more preferably) download it on the game's Slime Salad page as a zipped attachment:
http://www.slimesalad.com/forum/viewtop ... 7318#47318
Last edited by Pepsi Ranger on Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Place Obligatory Signature Here
User avatar
kylekrack
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1240
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:58 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by kylekrack »

Just to get back to you, I've been playing Entrepreneur more. Now that I've got the hang of things, I'm really enjoying it. I'm playing on easy mode but it's still enough of a challenge given my lack of experience with the game. I like how smoothly everything in the game is introduced, although it makes me anxious to get out and try to do everything. I am taking notes of everything that I find notable. But sometimes I forget because it's stressful to pause in the middle of something time sensitive.
My pronouns are they/them
Ps. I love my wife
User avatar
Pepsi Ranger
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Pepsi Ranger »

Just to let you know, all textboxes and menus pause the timer. The only exceptions are the ones that "count down," like the clock and the repair windows. So, the game self-pauses pretty much all of the time, and you never need to worry about running out the clock while you're writing something down or even walking away from the keyboard. Just make sure a menu is open, or you're in the middle of reading a textbox (that doesn't have a timer attached).

I look forward to your feedback. Let me know if the map is helpful, too. I'm still open to just about any suggestion that doesn't alter my plans for the game's future.
Place Obligatory Signature Here
User avatar
Pepsi Ranger
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Pepsi Ranger »

Spent the last couple of days adding in a few more items to round out a healthy list of expected things. Here's a sample:
  • Ice Cream Scoop - A dedicated serving item so that you don't have to serve ice cream with your hands or cross-contaminate your ice cream with potato salad due to using the serving spoon.

    Ceramic Saucers - A "cup warmer" for ceramic cups.

    Polystyrene Cups - A cup thicker than paper, but less elegant than ceramic. This will officially bring a clear level system to each type of cup. Best used with hot beverages.

    Plastic Cups - Like polystyrene, but best used for cold drinks.

    Napkins - So your customers don't have to clean themselves with their sleeves. Can be paired with anything.

    Newspapers - Every coffee shop should provide reading material for its guests.

    And more!
I've also updated the list of used items that Buck can find in the trash and serve to his customers to avoid paying for nice things.

Image
A new low.

Things are getting crazy in Hybrid City. Someone call the health inspector!
Place Obligatory Signature Here
User avatar
Nathan Karr
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:51 am
Contact:

Post by Nathan Karr »

There's always a new low for your coffee shop to sink to, isn't there? :hurr:
Remeber: God made you special and he loves you very much. Bye!
User avatar
Bob the Hamster
Lord of the Slimes
Posts: 7658
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:34 pm
Location: Hamster Republic (Ontario Enclave)
Contact:

Post by Bob the Hamster »

Conserve, recycle, reuse!
User avatar
guo
Metal Slime
Posts: 749
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:12 pm

Post by guo »

Precious first worlders getting all uppity about who used their cutlery last. Jeez.
vvight.wordpress.com
User avatar
Pepsi Ranger
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Pepsi Ranger »

So, Entrepreneur: The Beginning has had plenty of praise in its day, but unsurprisingly, it's had many criticisms. Complexity has been an issue with certain players, as it's not the kind of game that wants to hold your hand. But, perhaps an even bigger criticism has been its graphics.

In short, Entrepreneur: The Beginning is an ugly game. I'll be the first to admit it, and it's definitely been the one thing that's made me ache since the start. When I first started making it, I was in a hurry to meet a contest deadline, so I didn't put much effort in its visual presentation. Then, when the contest was over, I took a break, came back about ten months later, and started working on its core systems. I didn't bother with the graphics. That cast-off attitude lasted into the v1.2 update, and has continued into the present.

Now, the contest I entered was the 2009 8-bit Contest, and I went in with no real 8-bit graphic design knowledge. I used a palette that James supplied, and adhered to the various rules that the contest demanded, namely the four-color rule.

That was seven years ago, and I've finally gotten to the point where I no longer care about the rules of the contest, and I no longer want to keep drawing in the 16-color palette I've been using.

So, as an experiment this morning, I spliced the 16-color palette I've been using, with the top color line from the original OHR palette and an NES palette I had sitting in my OHR folder, and created a new Entrepreneur: The Beginning exclusive palette. Then I redrew and redesigned my first two shops in the game: The Whipping Shed and the Shop Down the Street. Instead of limiting every tile to four colors, I decided to limit every layer for each tile to four colors. And these four colors are of much wider variety than the ones on my original 16-color palette. So, the result is a richer version of the original design.

And if you're wondering why I'm cheating the colors, it's because I can. I'm not working on the NES. I'm working on the OHR, and the OHR allows me to stack layers on top of each other. Get over it, 8-bit purists.

Here's what I came up with. The first images of each set are the original versions. The second ones are the new versions. Tell me what you think.

Original Whipping Shed:

Image

New Whipping Shed:

Image

Original Shop Down the Street:

Image

New Shop Down the Street:

Image

I need a break from implementing new items, so I'm working on graphics this weekend. I'll post some of the better conversions as I go. I probably won't actually make these changes official until I can also update the NPC graphics. They are also still very, very ugly. But I've been changing the tilesets in another RPG file I titled "Graphics Test 8-bit" and exporting them, so I'm not too worried about damaging the layout of the game once I do import everything into Entrepreneur's game file.

Oh, and no, these versions aren't final. I may still tweak the looks of things as I go.
Last edited by Pepsi Ranger on Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Place Obligatory Signature Here
User avatar
kylekrack
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1240
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:58 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by kylekrack »

Oh Wow! Those shelves look really great! Nice to see that the specific items are visible on there. It all looks really good. I'm excited to see the rest of the graphical updates.
My pronouns are they/them
Ps. I love my wife
User avatar
Nathan Karr
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:51 am
Contact:

Post by Nathan Karr »

That does look a lot nicer. It's still very retro, but now looks pleasant.
Remeber: God made you special and he loves you very much. Bye!
User avatar
Pepsi Ranger
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Pepsi Ranger »

A first look at the new Buck walking through a new Downtown Hybrid City. His walking and running animations have also been updated.

Image

Still a work in progress, of course. For example, wouldn't it be cool to see air-conditioning units in some of those windows?

More to come soon.
Last edited by Pepsi Ranger on Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Place Obligatory Signature Here
User avatar
kylekrack
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1240
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:58 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by kylekrack »

Looking good!
My pronouns are they/them
Ps. I love my wife
User avatar
Pepsi Ranger
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:25 am
Location: South Florida

Post by Pepsi Ranger »

Recorded a half-hour video highlighting some of my newest visual updates to Entrepreneur: The Beginning, Version 1.3 today. Check it out if you want to see the enhancements it's undergoing, as well as to hear more about my upcoming plans for the game, and, well, to see how I play Day 1.

There will be a more complete preview video down the road, once I get a lot more features into the game, but this is your chance to get an early look at what's coming soon-ish, hopefully in 2017.

Enjoy the preview.

<object width="640" height="480"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SEdwdFJ9DWQ?ve ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SEdwdFJ9DWQ?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="480" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>
Place Obligatory Signature Here
User avatar
kylekrack
Liquid Metal Slime
Posts: 1240
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:58 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by kylekrack »

It's fascinating seeing all of the new stuff in action. The new customer sprites are looking particularly good. Adding more color to them makes it much easier to tell who's who, and just adds more life to them. The menus are certainly the most exciting part for me, though. There's just so much more information now. Playing around with garnishes, powders, and whatnot was always a shot in the dark for the most part. All I had was a flavor score, I think, and I wasn't sure exactly how that translated into the quality of a drink. It's good to see a more consistent view across the customer preference information and the item information.

I have a question about the z shortcut. I found it by chance once, and I couldn't tell how it calculated the cost. Does it show the estimated price of the cup of coffee for the customer? Or does it calculate the cost of each individual ingredient that went into making that cup, ie paper cup + hawaiian powder + sugar + cream? I assumed it would show the latter, but I remember the number shown not seeming to be accurate. However, since a serving of sugar is a fraction of the price of a whole unit, for example, my quick in-my-head math could be totally off.

On a side note, I wanted to mention that as I was getting my own coffee this morning, I noticed the garnish bar had cinnamon powder with the sugar. I'd never had cinnamon in my coffee before, but I realized that is practically my specialty in Entrepreneur based on how frequently I use it. Turns out it's actually really good. I might even make it my regular drink. I just find it interesting how much Entrepreneur: The Beginning has in a way shaped my way of thinking about things like what goes into making a product on the provider's and the customer's end. It's how I know it's such a great game.
My pronouns are they/them
Ps. I love my wife
Post Reply