Art music in games?

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Calehay
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Post by Calehay »

Iblis wrote:
I agree that you can achieve mood in any number of ways, but you said:
The point of a composer in a game is to help mood. That has nothing to do with game design.
Which seems to argue:
Music is just there for mood, therefore it's not part of game design.

Which makes no sense. Why is mood not part of game design?
Mood is part of a game. Music is part of mood. If you want think of it that way, I could see where you're coming from, but I just don't believe it works that way. Creating the mood is not the composers job. Not only does it require the designer to properly set it up, but most composers are not given any sort of license to do anything out of the designers vision.

The music in a game is not a priority, and so it should be something done in the last stages. It's just like people with the OHR that haphazardly throw a textbox and a song and a walkabout graphic and a script into their files at random intervals. If you focus on all the wrong things at the wrong time, it's going to be overwhelming/ineffective way to work. Also, remember the monetary concerns. The shorter time you're involving a composer, the less they can expect to be paid.

Also, as I can speak from experience, it's much easier to compose something after you see what the hell it is you're composing for. Seeing the game in a complete state will yield better music than haphazardly making "sad" and "happy" music. The composer is not contributing to the story, so why include them when scenario hasn't even been fleshed out yet? The composer should see the end product, so that they can anticipate what the audience will see and expand upon that. Based on the input from the director/designer and their own experience, they then go off and create the score for the film/game.

As an example, say that we do include the composer from the get go. Alright, so there's going to be this big chase scene. The designer explains how it's going to be. The composer goes home and starts to work on this thing. The design changes in scope because someone decides that chase scene needed to be comical. The composer scraps all of that work and starts a comical one. They put it together, and find out it's too short, because it's impossible to time a scene in the beginning stages. The composer goes off again. Then the designer feels it doesn't quite work, and scraps the entire scene.

How wasteful would that be? Remember that composers will generally sign contracts in which they are paid by the amount of music they write, not by what is left in the game/film.

This contrasts with, say, a musical. The songwriter(s) need to actively be part of the creation of the product, as their songs directly affect the flow of the piece. But even then, most good songwriters won't write songs until a portion of the libretto is done, because haphazardly writing songs and fitting them in won't work.

So yes, music matters, but it has very little bearing on the actual game mechanics itself. It may be a part of the design of the whole, but, as far as I'm concerned, it's very much a removed process, and for all these reasons, it turns about better that way.

EDIT:

I just read over all of this and saw I wasn't too particularly clear. Music is definitely something for the game designer to have on their minds, but it is not their job to create the music. That is the role of a composer. So, to be a bit more clear, composing, or conceiving music is not a part of game design. Defining the mood of a game is part of game design, and the designer may wish to help push the composer in the right direction, but ultimately, it is the decision of the composer as to what the music is, not the designer.

A designer can say, "Let's have happy music here," but that's really the only extent that a designer can give on it. They can be more verbose, and give directions such as, "I wish for absolutely gleeful music here, because character A just got married, and perhaps we can have some of Character's B theme in there to foreshadow the marriage's demise," but that's it. They've thought up ideas about what they want, but they're not actually acting on them, or even remotely designing the music. They're just giving very broad implications as to what they want.

So I guess what's more clear is that composing music has nothing to do with game design. Music placement to promote mood does have something to do with game design.
Last edited by Calehay on Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Newbie Newtype »

So yes, music matters, but it has very little bearing on the actual game mechanics itself.
Who ever said that music ever had bearing on game mechanics? I'm having trouble finding solid examples of where people said music directly affects things like damage formulas or battle balance and other such things.
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Post by Mazin »

What you're saying now is not the same as "throwing something in at the end." Designing the music to fit the scene after you've already made the scene is fine. But, regardless of when you make it, and whether it's a big part of the game's feeling or just a nice addition to the mood, it's something that should be seriously considered.

Understand that when I say "game design" I don't mean "gameplay design." I mean designing the game in its entirety. And I don't think anything should ever just be "thrown in."
The music in a game is not a priority
Why? Music isn't a huge part of most games, sure. But why can't it be?

EDIT:
So I guess what's more clear is that composing music has nothing to do with game design. Music placement to promote mood does have something to do with game design.
Okay, I agree with this except for when the game designer is also composing the music, then of course they have just as much control over it as they do over everything else.
Last edited by Mazin on Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Calehay
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Post by Calehay »

KittenMaster wrote:
So yes, music matters, but it has very little bearing on the actual game mechanics itself.
Who ever said that music ever had bearing on game mechanics? I'm having trouble finding solid examples of where people said music directly affects things like damage formulas or battle balance and other such things.
Poor word choice. It has very little bearing on what makes a game a game. Super Mario Brothers is the same game whether or not the music is Chopin or Kando. If you can change it, and the piece is not strongly affected by it, then I do believe that it's a much more frivolous affair than doing something like allowing Mario to double jump.
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Post by Newbie Newtype »

I know what you are saying, but you make it sound like it's okay for people to not put effort into the music because of the gameplay, when this thread is about setting music to mood, which isn't gameplay specific.
then I do believe that it's a much more frivolous affair than doing something like allowing Mario to double jump.
You make it sound like a victory that you managed to untie music to game mechanics, when nobody was trying to imply that in the first place...

BUT...

The music is there to affect the player, not the game.
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Calehay
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Post by Calehay »

Iblis wrote:What you're saying now is not the same as "throwing something in at the end." Designing the music to fit the scene after you've already made the scene is fine. But, regardless of when you make it, and whether it's a big part of the game's feeling or just a nice addition to the mood, it's something that should be seriously considered.
I never said that music shouldn't be carefully considered. I said it's something added at then end. However, you seemed to suggest that when designing a game, one is/should also plan the music. In my little addendum to my post, I posted why I feel this isn't really a part of the music making process, though it is definitely a starting point.
The music in a game is not a priority
Why? Music isn't a huge part of most games, sure. But why can't it be?
Because people playing them won't listen.

When people play games, the gameplay aspect is going to be the most prominent thing on their minds. Then the visuals, which go hand in had with the gameplay. If there is an overlapping storyline, that will come into play as well. At the bottom of the list, the player has a mood that they are in, and this can affect how they think of the game, but it's not THE game. This is obviously wrong for rhythm games, but when the music is not the focus, it is no longer the priority.

Since people prioritize things in their mind, they are not actively caring about the music. It wouldn't make sense to try and create a game where everything grabs the player's attention at once, and it wouldn't work anyway, because something becomes prioritized by the player one way or another.
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Post by Calehay »

KittenMaster wrote:I know what you are saying, but you make it sound like it's okay for people to not put effort into the music because of the gameplay, when this thread is about setting music to mood, which isn't gameplay specific.
I was originally talking about how structure can't be applied to game music like in art music, but we derailed somehow.

I don't think that people should treat game music like art music. They're two completely different things.
then I do believe that it's a much more frivolous affair than doing something like allowing Mario to double jump.
You make it sound like a victory that you managed to untie music to game mechanics, when nobody was trying to imply that in the first place...

BUT...

The music is there to affect the player, not the game.
Everything is there to affect the player, isn't it? Music is such a small part of that that's not easily controlled by a game designer.

And I think we were talking about structure of music in video games, which the designer has absolutely no control over, unless you consider turning one song off and another one on structure.
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Post by Newbie Newtype »

However, you seemed to suggest that when designing a game, one is/should also plan the music.
I don't remember trying to suggest how to plan the music, I just wanted to throw examples where it helps create memorable scenes.
Since people prioritize things in their mind, they are not actively caring about the music. It wouldn't make sense to try and create a game where everything grabs the player's attention at once, and it wouldn't work anyway, because something becomes prioritized by the player one way or another.
What you say is factually true in the moment, but you also forget that some cutscenes tend to be built in such a way where there are moments where there isn't much to think about, and the music becomes a bigger focus, before going back to giving the viewer/player more things to think about.

This is why I used Rocky as an example, especially his montage, because it's just Rocky running around doing exercise and no dialogue is spoken, but the music truly defines that moment, and personifies an uplifting thought.

When turning on FFX and viewing the intro, the first thing you see is a black screen with a few words I forget, and the "To Zanarkand" intro, then it shows a scene where the characters are not saying anything, they are just in quiet thought. Since dialogue and action are not present in this scenery, this gives the mind a chance to notice the music.

For something like Mario or Megaman 2, what you say is more true, obviously, but also remember that music tends to stick. People may not notice Megaman 2's music the first time, but once they hear it while not playing the game, they realize how awesome the music is and how well it fits the game. It's a subconscious effect.

I hate having arguments like this where I start by going by pure example, and then people assume I'm trying to disown technique somehow. I don't know the process of making music of games. I just know what sounds good and what doesn't, and I'm trying to remember what I think worked best as someone who witnesses this stuff.
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Post by Calehay »

What you say is true, but it's not the game designer's role.

When someone says game design to me, that means that it's what the game designer has brought to the table before whoever decides to make it a game. If the game designer decided every little thing about the game, they would be dead from exhaustion. The FFX example was more than likely planned by the Movie Director than Sakaguchi, or whoever is taking credit for design of FFX. In the amateur world, like ours, these roles usually fall on one or two different people.

So, in my opinion, to a professional game designer, if they aren't taking up any more roles than that, music should be nothing more than large overall ideas as to what it could be.

EDIT:

Of course, I'm a Music Comp major, so that may be a different way of thinking than someone with a Game Design degree.

Kinda on topic:

I will say, if you try to compare music in a lot of games today to art music of the past, there's a lot of slime music in games today, but people accept it because the standards for art music have diminished and standards for pop music have arisen and overtaken them. That's why I don't think it's a good idea to treat game music like art music. The expectations are different. People going to a Brittany Spears concert wouldn't want to have an interlude where they play Brahms.
Last edited by Calehay on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Newbie Newtype »

I could care less who does what and all that jazz. I'm talking about the finished product, not the people making the product.
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Post by Calehay »

Then I definitely agree that music does affect the player's mood, and when putting it all together, it should all work as one cohesive finished product. I just don't think that the whole is what designing a game sets out to do. I don't know if it's just my thoughts about it based on what I've read or what, but I think the when a game designer creates a game document, they aren't creating a catch-all, and the "designing" stops there. Now, you're into the creating part.
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I just don't think that the whole is what designing a game sets out to do. I don't know if it's just my thoughts about it based on what I've read or what, but I think the when a game designer creates a game document, they aren't creating a catch-all, and the "designing" stops there. Now, you're into the creating part.
This is something that is better said in a topic about game design and creating a design doc.

This thread is more about music's role in games specifically. You could argue that music must come after the game is fleshed out for a better effect, which is a good idea, and obviously is not game design as a whole, just music design.

Even though the music in my game is taken from vgmusic.com so far (I should probably find sites where the music is ripped and not composed), I've taken the effort to try and choose music I think fits, and I need to go back and change music around for cut scenes and such after I finish all of that.
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Post by JSH357 »

I agree with Calehay on most every point. Music has little to nothing to do with game design (unless the game uses music in its mechanics like Mother 3, Guitar Hero or whatever, but even then whether or not that constitutes "music as a part of game design" is up to debate). Music functions as an accessory, just like shaded graphics or good writing. I hope that doesn't make me sound too ignorant, but I really don't think music has some deeper purpose in game design generally--plenty of games are successful without even using music at all.

The FFX argument is totally related to cinematics, which again, is just an accessory. FFX could have had everything but the story scenes and still have functioned as a game (albeit a confusing one).

As for building an overall "musical structure..." well, there lies the problem of most game designers being incapable of writing music for one reason or another. It's possible to have a game will good musical structure, but ultimately, it's going to be too trivial to matter. Many gamers play without sound, for instance, and the game designer has no control over that. If music is an integral part of the game, he's losing part of his audience. Really, I feel that in most cases all music does it add to the game, not enforce its value as a game.
Last edited by JSH357 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Newbie Newtype »

Okay, I'm tired of talking about whether it's game design or not. I was just trying to give examples of how it affects the mood of the game, which is what the topic was asking for.
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Post by Calehay »

Getting back to music in games in general, and the structure of said music, how does everyone take that comment?

I've said my piece about how I don't think placement of music has anything to do with musical structure. Most songs in video games are based off of well-known pop forms or are through-composed "mood" pieces. Placing a leitmotif that's completely disjointed from the rest of the music doesn't require any compositional intuition.
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