Final Fantasy IV (DS)

[Fortis]

hey, please don't troll these forums lablelover. thanks.

How is he trolling? It's an interesting point. Cecil doesn't react in any way when the dancer is shaking her ladyparts at him, it's up to us to interpret the reaction, which is why most of us don't feel like it's a bad thing, she just kind of DID it at us, so we just go "what the hell" and move on.

On the other hand if she was like ARE YOU GOING TO ARREST ME? and you could choose between yes or no, then it makes the entire situation different.

And anyway if you think about it the idea that she feels like she HAS TO do this so Cecil won't arrest her is really slimed up. I don't agree with that entire idea, I think it represents some real badness. It wouldn't stop me personally from playing I think, but I can see why someone would object to it enough to not want to play the game anymore.

[JSH357]

My, our admin trolls are setting a great example for the kids.

[Mogri]

Cecil doesn't react in any way when the dancer is shaking her ladyparts at him, it's up to us to interpret the reaction, which is why most of us don't feel like it's a bad thing, she just kind of DID it at us, so we just go "what the hell" and move on.

Exactly. I find it odd that anyone would quit playing the game due to this scene in particular.

The issue here is not whether this is a disgusting and offensive piece of gaming - it is.

Don't force your interpretation on us. The lady is a dancer by trade -- she'll dance for you earlier in the game, too, and this by choice -- and she's continuing to dance as a rejection of the king's authority, not as submission to yours.

"Are you going to arrest me?" For what? She didn't do anything wrong. It's the dance that's illegal. I find your interpretation nonsensical in context and yet you're trying to pass it off as something we should all find "disgusting and offensive."

[misterj]

hey, please don't troll these forums lablelover. thanks.

How is he trolling? It's an interesting point. Cecil doesn't react in any way when the dancer is shaking her ladyparts at him, it's up to us to interpret the reaction, which is why most of us don't feel like it's a bad thing, she just kind of DID it at us, so we just go "what the hell" and move on.

ok, so let's say a woman randomly starts dancing in front of you. do you applaud her or just have no idea what the slime she just danced for? i'm leaning towards the second.
that's exactly what you said most people react like (exception: thegiz) and that's exactly how i would expect cecil to react(being prude and all!!).

the game wasn't trying to paint women off as stupid and weak and only interesting because of their own bodies. lablelover is reading way too much into it. it was just something silly to lighten up the mood. but hell, if you think it's some sort of message then... whatever.

[Fortis]

My, our admin trolls are setting a great example for the kids.

To be fair I only played the SNES ROM and kind of don't remember, I thought this was a re translation of "HEY WATCH THIS!" from waay in the beginning but apparently it is not.

[LableLover]

Now, what seems to be happening here is the question of whether or not this is an example of exploitation - I'm contending it is, you are contending that on the contrary it's actual an act of resistance (within the context of the game).

We are very clearly discussing separate moments - this occurs on the very first trip to either the first or second town so there's no moment "earlier" where she could have danced for you.
I'll pick the cart back up later today and transcribe out the interaction.

the game wasn't trying to paint women off as stupid and weak and only interesting because of their own bodies. lablelover is reading way too much into it. it was just something silly to lighten up the mood.

Of course it wasn't, you are missing my point - it's not that women are stupid and weak it's that someone in a position of power is using that power to force someone to commodify their sexuality (could be man to a man, woman to a woman, pick your combination).
We can argue over whether that occurs or not, but a game is art and it has meaning. To allow for it to express oppressive and offensive viewpoints is to become complicit with those views, it is the very belief that games are meaningful experiences that renders this an important issue.

And no Fortis, you aren't mistaken.

[Mogri]

I may be confusing the two events in my head, but I don't think she begs you not to arrest her the first time you see her.

[LableLover]

I may be as well.

I'll check it out after work.

No harm no foul either way, but I am curious now. Because you are right, if it occurs after you've seen her dance once and she's refusing to stop - that's a powerful act of resistance; if not... not so much.

[misterj]

it's that someone in a position of power is using that power to force someone to commodify their sexuality

see what i said before. you are reading way too much into it

a game is art

nevermind, ƒuck it, now i'd just be trolling.

edit: oh you can't write slime. i wonder how it shows up for people if i put garbage chars in.

[Uncommon]

To allow for it to express oppressive and offensive viewpoints is to become complicit with those views...

Wait, so you're saying that to not protest the existence of something that you agree with is equal to endorsing it? And this is true because it's art? I'm sorry, this just sounds absurd to me. Perhaps the purpose of the thing wasn't too offend you, but the idea that everything in art must conform to an individual's worldview both diminishes the meaning of art and completely misses the point of individuality.
Things will rub you the wrong way sometimes. This does not obligate you to be up in arms about it or authorize you to erase it from existence. Even our concepts of a civilized society aren't inherent in nature. (what the hell?)

[LableLover]

Outside of missing agree/disagree, which is semantics and I just mention to be clear, you are missing almost entirely what I'm saying.

At no point do I suggest that this game should be erased from existence, I simply can't identify with the hero so find it unplayable.
Furthermore, at no point do I suggest that all art should conform to any individual's viewpoint. All I state is that art is meaningful and constructs renders meaning to those who view it - because of this, because humor, games, movies, etc. are tools by which to construct profound orderings of experience - then allowing for the eliding of the harmful aspects of oppression (the glossing it over, pretending it doesn't matter, ignoring it) is to be complicit in it.

If I sit on a bus and watch a bunch of skinheads attack a minority and do nothing, I'm complicit in that act. If I sit at work and watch a more qualified woman be passed over for promotion and I'm complicit in that oppression.
Ignoring things doesn't change them, especially when the oppression is institutional.

I believe the main problem was in the "allow for" you thought I was making a pro censorship argument, I'm not at all. I'm saying that we should reject such acts, not efface them and not ignore them.

[Meatballsub]

Well, I finally finished the game. Zeromus was definitely a lot easier than anticipated. A few rounds of melee and some fuma shurikens? Cake. I really expected it to be much more difficult due to the fact that I really did not have a great augment setup and were missing quite a few of the good ones that you can get the first time around.

I don't think I will play through it a second time, just to see the optional bosses. I did have a blast playing it though, and it was really sweet seeing some of the old sprites in 3d (like the cyborg-head thing in the last few floors of the lunar subterraene. He was rad.)