The Most Nathan Karr Thread in OHRRPGCE History

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Mogri
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Post by Mogri »

Rue wrote:On second though, please refrain from posting anything else ever again anywhere else on the internet ever again, for the good of the human race.
Hey, this is not helpful. I'm not sure this thread as a whole is accomplishing anything worthwhile, but posts like this certainly don't push it in a better direction.
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Post by Rue »

Not in the habit of being nice to racist, attention seeking religious zealots who are looking for attention on game development forums. But, you're right, I'll not post about it.
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Post by Mogri »

Thank you. Going out of your way to antagonize Nathan does nothing but confirm his existing beliefs. You're not going to show him he's wrong that way.

As for you, Nathan, consider that you're going about this in an entirely uncharitable manner. I could put a much finer point on it, but you're a full-grown adult. Please do a little introspection and try to understand how what you've said might upset a reasonable person.
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Post by Nathan Karr »

I can't say I was expecting to get this much activity in so short a time, but I shouldn't be too surprised since resentment of me was bubbling just below the surface in the background for about as long as I've been in around, when it wasn't open mockery at least. It seems me standing up for myself and my beliefs in a measured manner has struck a nerve, and by no small amount. Better to be openly resented than quietly resented, I figure.

I only wish that places like Castle Paradox and the old Super Walrus Land forums were archived in a way I could easily cite my sources going back to those, to show both that I have no reason to hide the mistakes I actually did make and learned from and to show how treatment of me has been all-but-consistently unjust from day one, growing to some begrudging mutual respect from more of our community's better game developers in spite of our vast differences.

An attack on an aggregate bad behavior widespread within a group is still an attack on the behavior, not the individuals responsible (and "silent majority, noisy minority" is the sort of thing that only happens if the majority is either cowed into not speaking out against the behavior they disapprove of or silently affirming/supporting what the "misrepresentative minority" is doing).

It will take me some time to read all of it and respond to whatever portion is worthy of response. Well, if I could spend five hours composing the original post of this thread, I can certainly spare an evening two days later to giving a rebuttal or affirmation to anything as needed.

The main reason I've had trouble with communicating on big, broad topics like this in the past has always been taking a "ready, fire, aim" tactic with my words, letting myself get heated and responding too quickly; I should've learned a lot sooner that when blatantly other people angrily asserting I am wrong = accepted and me angrily repeating what I've already said clear as day = moderator action possibly including bans from the site, bans from specific threads, thread being locked so whatever last mockeries and lies were leveled at me are left in place without response, etc. that it's on me to never cross that emotional line in argument so that when I'm still treated unjustly anyway, it's all the clearer that I was in the right.

---
SwordPlay wrote:your really needs a good,long, edit. maybe some hard cuts. a LOT
I cut my thread a lot. That initial post was after five hours of heavily deliberated, carefully worded revision. I've found a grammatical mistake in one of my paragraphs and may or may not go back to edit it after this, but otherwise stand by what I've said.
SwordPlay wrote:you can't get it by force, throwing words at the problem.
I'm not applying force, I'm just telling people I'm tired of being picked on for reasons varying from "no reason" to "you have politics I disagree with even if you don't push them in the game development forum" to "how very dare you not actively affirm the thing I like and consider to be the cornerstone of my identity" to "I've made up a version of you inside my head, it lives there without rent and believes legitimately nasty things; I hate it and by extension hate you because I based it on you".
SwordPlay wrote:you seem to prepossessed with a paranoid delusion about some threat to the world or your personal self
Artimus Bena wrote:From where I'm sitting, it seems like you need to feel persecuted so you can feel like the lone hero fighting the good fight.
Yes yes, how dare the person who is persecuted online and off for his entire life develop a little paranoia? Yeah, let's just dismiss everything about his life and the beliefs that inform them as misinformed delusion. It's just a persecution complex, there's no way he's been wrongly driven out of discourse for no reason in many, many places.
Spoonweaver wrote:I disagree with a lot of your talking points here, but that does not mean at all that I dislike you.

...

I have always felt that "flamewars" were actually very healthy. I know that's not a shared belief and I know actual real life bad things can stem from them. But I think ultimately people should be heard and topics should be discussed.
Thank you. This is the kind of response I've always hoped for from those who disagree with me. And yes, I think internet culture was healthier when flame wars were more frequent, not less. The problem with not allowing them to ever erupt at all because of "division and hostility" is that usually this means one side (and it's almost always the same one) gets to heavily push what it wants and praise each other over it, then if anyone objects in the smallest way it's immediately denigrated as "hostility" and "hatred", then banned on sight.

This then turns into an echo chamber, where all of an opposing side's beliefs are turned into a ridiculous strawman ("I believe this economic policy would hurt [minority community]" becoming "[Party] simply hates minorities and anyone who has voted on that side for any reason is a racist by default") - conservative circles aren't immune to this, as I've seen first-hand, but it's the default in liberal circles (such as the education industry, news industry, and all the big multinational corporations who control most of the Internet). Conservatives are constantly bombarded with the actual fringe and mainstream left at the same time, and can observe the rapid pull the extreme camp has to drag the culture toward their intended goals, while leftists are generally allowed to live in an emotional and intellectual bubble. For example, by basically any measure Donald Trump was a moderate liberal who happened to run under the R flag because the Democrat party had become just that radicalized; he supported gay rights, respected transgender preferred pronouns, and actually acted on reducing the military overreach people rightly criticized George Bush over but conveniently ignored Barrack Obama simply doubling down on. There's no measure by which he could've been called a right-wing extremist with any sort of honesty, but honest reporting of facts is not what mainstream journalism has ever been about in over a century. He too was called a racist for no reason, called a racist on flimsy reasons, asked to denounce white supremacy openly which he did quite consistently multiple times and then immediately after showing him doing so, the person asking the loaded questions would say "Gee, he refused to answer my question, he must be a racist like I always thought."
Spoonweaver wrote:I think if everyone actually acted how christ actually acted in parts of the new testament of the bible that the world would actually be better.
I agree. And that included Christ calling out the hypocrisy of the Sadducees and Pharisees, referring to his own generation as a brood of vipers, telling his disciples to arm themselves for when he'd no longer be present, and telling some of the cities he preached and worked miracles in that they'll be judged more harshly at the end of days than Sodom and Gomorrah, which had the excuse of never hearing from him directly.

"I am sending you as sheep among wolves, so be as innocent as doves and as shrewd as snakes." I've failed hard at the innocent part.
Atriums Bena wrote:Can't just find a way to fit in and have fun without muddying the place with controversial topics

...

So when you shove that sh** into the equation, into this *COMMUNITY*, what you are doing is pooping all over what WE find sacred: Slime Salad, as a peaceful and positive place
"Here, let's virtue signal about how much we support the gay rights movement!"
"Can we please not?"
"Why do you have to keep bringing controversial takes with you, Nate?"

"Hey, let's talk about how capitalism sucks and everyone would be better if we tried socialism again. I'm sure it'll work this time!"
"Capitalism has helped people."
"You just hate poor people, stop bringing your controversial politics everywhere."

"Republicans are racist."
"I'm not racist and no Republicans I've ever met have been racist, though I'm sure there are a few."
"You're a racist in denial. Stop denying it and openly call yourself a racist so that I can cite that as my reason for attacking you and calling you a racist the first time."

"If we care about gay and women's rights, can we please address that Muslim countries treat them a lot worse than anywhere in the Christianized Western world?"
"No, that's racist!"
"How is it racist? I'm criticizing a religion and the behaviors it encourages, not the ethnicity of any of its adherents."

I'm not the one who drags these topics into places, it's just that me disagreeing at all is seen as hostile by people who want 100% uncontested control of all discourse on all issues. Everyone needs to either be too afraid to offer the mildest contrary opinion or actively affirming a cultural shift in a single, specific direction. It's "peaceful" because anyone who disagrees with you is scared away, scared into silence, or dogpiled.
Bob the Hamster wrote:Anti gay and anti muslim rhetoric are not tolerable to me. Neither in a rant post, not in a game, nor in someone defending them just for sale of argument as a devil's advocate.
In that case, I challenge you to read what Muhammad himself said about homosexuals. These two positions are not mutually compatible; either Muhammad, his body of work, and any cultural issues stemming from following his preachings are up for criticism or Muhammad, his teachings, and anyone who carries out his teachings are beyond reproach and that includes his policy of "Kill all homosexuals". I even stated explicitly that I believe many Muslims are genuinely decent and peaceable people in spite of their religion's founding by a child-molesting wife-stealing caravan robber who self-admitted he thought the "angel" talking to him might be a devil; that they can be good through ignorance of their religion's founder, history, and law.

So basically pick one sacred cow: The gays or the Muslims. I reserve the right to criticize both, to different degrees, and for different reasons. I do not hate either even if I criticize both.

I don't want gay couples legally recognized as the same thing as a man and woman being married, I don't want them adopting children, and I don't want the continued push for more and more outlandish sexualities to be made mainstream. I also don't want gay men forced to undergo sex reassignment surgery to "turn them from gay men into straight women" as happens in some Middle Eastern countries or thrown off of buildings as in others. As a libertarian I'm all for taking sodomy laws off the books ([spoiler]my opinion is that laws shouldn't be in a limbo of "there but not enforced"; they should simply be or not be, and we can argue about the laws themselves when they are up for review[/spoiler]) just as we've legalized contraception, but you don't get to sue me if I choose not to accept your contract to bake a wedding cake or be your wedding photographer.

If I unilaterally resented others for being attracted to members of their own sex, I wouldn't be dating bisexual women, the current one of whom has thus far taken no issue with my beliefs.
Idontknow wrote:Image
This is a legitimately funny edit.
Rue wrote:In regards to how your "message" is being received by people incorrectly, that tells me that you need a lot of growth as an artist.
I've admitted before that I've fumbled the execution, but as I said even if I'd 100% perfectly executed my message I'd still be hated for daring to say, shock of shocks, that no race should be actively maligned or mistreated and it isn't fundamentally less bad to attack a majority ethnicity than a minority ethnicity and I was already being called a racist, completely absent of literally any evidence, for over half a decade before making the game on the subject. A game which was a reaction to those very sentiments.
Rue wrote:
Simply for not being a self-loathing white-guilt laden virtue-signaling racist...I am considered a racist.
On second though, please refrain from posting anything else ever again anywhere else on the internet ever again, for the good of the human race.
Why thank you for immediately 100% proving my point on this subject.
Rue wrote:You can't use being being on the spectrum as an excuse.
I've never used it as an excuse, but as soon as I learned about the spectrum a lot of things about my behavior made sense in hindsight. I was like "Oh, the world is only mostly hostile and I'm sometimes overreacting because I have low social intelligence, this makes perfect sense. And people are always trying to aggressively stare me in the eyes because they think not directly leering them in the eyes is a sign of deceit? No wonder it's so much harder to talk to people in real life than on the Internet!"
Spoonweaver wrote:I think I'm going to take back what I said before about defending Nathan in this thread if it comes out that this thread is not about feeling like he's bullied online and is instead to voice anti muslim opinions, anti gay opinions, or some other extreme views.
The views I've stated on those topics are not extreme by any measure other than those of someone adhering strictly to another extreme, usually one that's internally consistent.

And yes, this thread is almost entirely because I feel like I've been bullied - and I'm prepared for backlash. I just don't like being called things I'm not, though as I've said before I should be used to it.
Mogri wrote:Please do a little introspection and try to understand how what you've said might upset a reasonable person.
I did about three years of introspection and considering how literally anything I've said or posted or linked in this thread could upset a reasonable person, then spent five hours composing the initial post once things came to a head and I'd decided I'd be better off taking the risk and being under fire again.
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If I was a gay fox and a better, more consistent Christian at the same time.
If I was a gay fox and a better, more consistent Christian at the same time.
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Yes, this is what I sincerely believe is the correct response. I don't hate you if you believe otherwise.
Yes, this is what I sincerely believe is the correct response. I don't hate you if you believe otherwise.
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The right to be offensive is important.
The right to be offensive is important.
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Post by SwordPlay »

Nathan, you are a really good guy. But I wonder what led you on this path of hating others?
Is blaming others a way to improve oneself?

"the worst enemy is ones own mind, ill-tamed"
"the best friends is ones own mind, well-trained"
- Buddha

there aren't any external enemies you must fight, as long as you have not won the battle within.

When you triumph over yourself, no one in the world will stand against you and you will see no enemies...

I think some gays and muslims understood that well enough and even better than you or me!
so it's a shame you have to resort to blanket/umbrella terms when we should really look at INDIVIDUALS....
If I looked at you as an individual, what would I find? Shall I take you as an exemplar of Christianity? far from it...

There is only so much we can do to represent a people. At the end of the day, we have to represent our own selves....

Don't make your representation that of hatred... make it one of love.
Not one of blame... one of responsibility
Not one of painful struggle... one of humility and forebearance....

I think you are a good person who can understand these things...
So can Gay people and Muslims!

There's really not that much difference externally.
A good person is a good person, regardless of gender sexuality religion etc.,
Let's all try to remember this moving forward.
Last edited by SwordPlay on Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Spoonweaver »

Nathan, this has clearly taken a turn.
Your post was not about you individually being bullied, it's a list of right-wing political view points.

I think the main focus of your post is HATE.
I think swordplay touches upon this in the way that you talk about self-hate. I'm glad you are possibly getting over your self hate. But I hope you understand that everyone here said that they don't hate you as a person. They hate the ideas you are posting about.

The way I see things is when you share something, a group will hate it, a group won't care, and a group will love it. When you share these things, you have to expect that. And you have to seek out the groups that love it, not hate it if you want to be happy.
You also don't need any 1 group to be happy about everything you share about yourself.
No one is 100% accepted by everyone they know. 100% acceptance is even rare in a marriage of 2 people. It's a rare thing to find and a thing to be cherished.
A more common goal is to seek out many different groups to share that part of yourself with.
If you like to work out, join a gym. If you love Jesus, go to church.
If you have political ideas, hang out with people that have those ideas.

What I see you doing is going to groups and wanting them all to be something they are not. Yes, Slimesalad is pro-gay. In every way. This is not the place for you to share those thoughts and be loved. There are places (sadly) that you can go and be with like minded people, and share your thoughts and be loved there. I suggest you seek them out (or don't and change your thoughts ideally)
Any sort of erosion of Right-wing politics is clearly just in your mind. You mentioned Trump. Trump got a very large number of votes, so there are a very large number of people with right -wing ideas that you can share all this with and feel loved.
That place is not here.

We welcome the side of you that makes wacky ohr games, and posts interesting webcomics sometimes. That's really what we're looking for here.
When Artimus talks about things being peaceful he means most people here have the same ideas and generally feel loved.
I am very sorry you do not feel like you belong. But if your WHOLE personality consists of trying to spread the ideas you just posted then that whole personality is not welcomed.
Last edited by Spoonweaver on Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bob the Hamster »

Okay, yikes, that was a bit worse than I expected.

I must revise and clarify my previous statement.

I can't under any circumstances be friends with anyone who spews hate. It doesn't matter to me what the rationalizations are behind that hate, and it doesn't matter to me if that person has a different definition of what "hate" means than I do.

I also cannot co-exist in a creative space with someone who has dedicated themselves to being offensive at all costs.

I have nothing further to say to you Nathan.

To everyone else in this thread, thank you, I appreciate you all standing up for the community. Please don't waste too much more time and energy.

I will not be returning to this thread.
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Post by Rue »

Okay, yikes, that was a bit worse than I expected.

I must revise and clarify my previous statement.

I can't under any circumstances be friends with anyone who spews hate. It doesn't matter to me what the rationalizations are behind that hate, and it doesn't matter to me if that person has a different definition of what "hate" means than I do.

I also cannot co-exist in a creative space with someone who has dedicated themselves to being offensive at all costs.

I have nothing further to say to you Nathan.

To everyone else in this thread, thank you, I appreciate you all standing up for the community. Please don't waste too much more time and energy.

I will not be returning to this thread.
My sentiments exactly.

I used to try to maintain a "it takes all kinds, and be nice to everyone and hope that we can all co-exist" mentality, but I've learned in the last four years specifically that I need to aggressively oust people like this. I'll be a little bit nicer here and try to just drop it, like Mogri wants, but I'm sooo not okay, and absolutely not comfortable being even remotely associated with people like Nathan.
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Post by Eonhetwo »

@Nate Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm gonna make a speculation; You spend a lot of time on 4chan(?) I'm telling you man, that place can be very effective at radicalizing introverts to the far right (or "freedom" as you put it.)

(BTW if I'm wrong on that, I'm very sorry for crass assumptions, its just your rhetoric reeks of it very strongly.)

I think it's all fantastic man, freedom of speech and all that. Good on you for thrusting your opinions into the forum, it's inspiring, truely. Idk what I'm doing here, just being nosey I guess.

I love talking about the Bible, I studied it in college for a couple years before my now ex wife cheated on me and left me homeless with nothing but an '02 Dodge Neon and a guitar. Spent almost four years traveling around America, but that's a story for another day ;)

Anyways what I find one of the most fascinating aspects of the Bible is the very start. It says in there that God SPOKE CREATION into existence. Like wtf! This is a cosmological mind freak right here, imagine it.... Whatever God "is", whatever he's "made of" is something that is to matter what matter is to what we speak as words... Like, what he experiences as a sentence is defacto the ordered ingredients that constitute a self recognized perception and it's environment.

This biblical fact bears with it a few tasty implications.. it's always the implication, that which is between the lines, that interests me. What this implies is that creation IS itself, in it's entirety and for all time, the WORD of God. Think about this.. Creation is the infallible word of God. He spoke it. Keep in mind that this also implies that nothing in creation is wrong, incorrect, or in need of correction, for it is the infallible word of God. Supporting texts of this claim include: The story of how God "hardened pharohs heart" so that he would refrain from allowing Moses and his people to worship in the wilderness, not to mention the entire book of Job.

Ok.. here's what sucks though, (but there is light at the end of this tunnel I promise.) OBVIOUSLY, stopping the ball there, saying "Oh well everything I experience is the flowing words of God, issued from his very lips, and is therefore perfect JUST the way it is.. well that's gonna raise some alarms for people.. probably for you! It's obvious that there are many other parts of the Bible that detail ways in which this creation must be changed from what it "is" (which remember... What it "is" is the word of God). Commandments like stoning gay people, stoning non-believers, stoning well.. basically anybody that was inhabiting the strip of land that Abraham claimed was given to his tribes as "the promised Land".

There's a point in here somewhere.. somewhere deep. Where were we? Oh yeah! Contradictions. Yeah they're all up in the Bible, but here's the thing; There's this guy, Godël, right? Mathematition, contemporary of Einstein. He actually proved, in a revolutionary equation known as Godëls Incompleteness Theorem, that no formal system can be both complete and consistent.

Damn it's getting late.. I figured I'd have more time to present this little diddy...

Well to sum it up, the biblical cosmology is a map of the mechanics of the mind/body organism, wherein the "creation" that God spoke into existence is itself the words of the model(Bible) that become the systemic illusion, the linguistic simulation that the organism thinks of as reality. "In the beginning, there was nothing." This is the complete story of how a human child becomes inundated with a mythos, and rules for categorizing and making distinctions of what was initially a non-distinct free form flow. God is the parents (calling themselves "we" in the first books) which also as John declares "is the Word (this in greek is Logos, which is an entire platonic concept that predates Christianity by a long shot) and was WITH the Word(Logos).

Getting into the Logos, is getting into platonic ideal forms. This is essentially an expression in space/time that is in perfect harmony with the "direction" so to speak of a metaphysical object that can be said to exist beyond a perpetual horizon of sorts. So anyways, (here's the gospel in a whole new way btw) that Logos, comes DOWN, see? This is the passing of the current of Divine expression into the mind/body in a form of initiation. The historical activities of that one guy become themselves a lexicon of introspective rebirth into divine status. He came in, healed the body and bestowed divine authority upon the followers, and entered "heaven" after resurrection, which corresponds to the higher cognitive realms from which He sits as head of the church. So the marriage between church and Christ is the union of dichotomy between mind and body and environment, it is a personal spiritual event of enlightenment, written in a fractal lexicon that can translate it's meaning laterally along personal, social, global and metaphysical contexts.

So anyways.. this was not anything that has any reason to be here. It's completely irrelevant to the context of this community, which is a game creation engine. It's not particularly helpful to anybody that isn't specifically looking for this type of information, and why they would look for it here, I have no idea.
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Post by MorpheusKitami »

I don't know what went on in the Discord, but I get a vague idea about what went down by how this topic is going. One thing I've noticed in a lot of internet communities is that a lot of people haven't gotten over high school; They're still stuck in that high school mentality. Still bitter about people who mistreated them. Jocks, nerds, teachers, men, women, parents, the church. They allow the bitterness to fester inside themselves, and whenever they get a chance, they lash out at anyone they consider like the people who mistreated them.
Because most people around here are furries, this place tends to lean very left-wing, though I'm sure many would deny it. Because of that, a lot of people here are bitter about the church. Bitter no doubt about religious relatives, the blaming of media they like for all the worlds ills, and the possiblity of a Christian theocracy. A perceived inescapable nightmare. Some of them no doubt truly hateful. So they get away from all that, as much as they can. Build places where they don't have to deal with that, so forth. To ensure that others like them have a place to go. Some even try to fight against those that wronged them.
But the thing about that is sometimes those fighting for a good cause turn bad. He who fights monsters. The only difference between the good guy and the bad guy is the good guy's cause. The good guy is only the good guy because he was once good. Sometimes if you measure the good guy against the bad guy, the bad guy is better. I've seen a lot of that over the past six years. People taking aggressive stands over politics, both right and left, and all they ever do is force themselves inside an ever-shrinking bubble, that only serves to make things worse. They see hate, when none exists. They put hate into the words of others, when none exists.
So, I have to ask, are you really going to stab your friend in the back? Its no skin off my nose if you do, I don't think me and Nathan have ever really interacted. But the thing about most betrayers, is that they don't stop with just one. Its an addiction. I'm sure because I'm defending Nathan my back will be next, but, I'm not part of the Discord, so its no skin off my nose. But most betrayers don't stop with just two...
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Post by SwordPlay »

be careful when you fight with monsters, lest you become a monster
Last edited by SwordPlay on Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Idontknow »

Personally, I think that Nathan WANTS us to mock and ridicule him openly. He wants us to ban him or lock this thread so he can go cry in the comments of some right-wing youtube video about how we're horrible bullies who 'cancelled' him.

Like James said, don't waste too much more time and energy on him. Don't give him that satisfaction, he doesn't deserve it.
Last edited by Idontknow on Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Spoonweaver »

Image
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Post by Ravancloak »

I personally have always felt that hate towards anyone is unneeded. That said, intolerance of any kind should never be tolerated. This goes for everyone here. If you want to make a point about any topic that is charged, for the love of all that is holy... don't do it here. This entire thread seems very childish to me, both the reactions (a few) of the users here, and Nathan's for starting the whole thing. I feel that there is a large part of shame that you have to deal with, Nathan, and I wish you the best on that journey, if you choose to take it. THAT SAID. Do not push your shame on others. This is not a godly thing to do. Talk it out to a therapist or something. Just please don't do that here.
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Re: The Most Nathan Karr Thread in OHRRPGCE History

Post by Mogri »

Nathan Karr wrote:
Mogri wrote:Please do a little introspection and try to understand how what you've said might upset a reasonable person.
I did about three years of introspection and considering how literally anything I've said or posted or linked in this thread could upset a reasonable person, then spent five hours composing the initial post once things came to a head and I'd decided I'd be better off taking the risk and being under fire again.
Uh... Mission accomplished? But please consider this:

Suppose Actually Hitler showed up and started posting. He'd be kicked out of every community he went to, and for good reason! Nobody wants Actually Hitler or any of the views he espouses! That doesn't mean that he's a righteous martyr; it means that he's wrong.

Or, to use the scriptures you're quoting:
Matthew 5:11-12 (emphasis added) wrote:Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
I think it's fairly obvious to everyone but you that what you're doing does not pass the "WWJD?" check. I am not saying that you are Actually Hitler, but just like Actually Hitler should consider that he's doing something wrong, so should you. Getting "driven out of discourse" is more often a sign that you're doing something wrong than it is a sign that everyone else is doing something wrong. Gut check: is what you're doing wholesome and uplifting, or is it divisive and contentious? [spoiler](It is the latter)[/spoiler]

Moreover, as Spoonweaver implied, what you're doing here does not pass the "Sir, this is an Arby's" check. That is, even if there weren't a litany of objections, this is not the place to have these discussions.

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From this point, I am OK discussing the meta-level principles around what sort of discussion is acceptable here. I am not OK with this line of discussion continuing. That goes not only for Nathan but everyone else.

In other words:
  • Do you have an opinion about what Nathan said? You are entitled to that opinion, but if you share it here, I am going to be annoyed.
  • Do you have questions about this post? You are welcome to ask. I promise there will be no administrative action against discussion of site policy.
  • Do you want to get banned so that you can confirm your pre-existing beliefs that everyone is out to get you because you're the only sane voice in a sea of madness? I will do this on request, but it doesn't make you right.
There are lots of places where you can discuss whether Republicans are racist. This is not one of those places.
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