Icespire - META CHAT (out of character)

[Spoonweaver]

Think nothing of it. Aligning a characters back story is the DM's duty.

[Bob the Hamster]

I hope it was okay making up a DC for Mug hiding his emotional reaction from his friends. I figured it was just a flavor thing that didn't matter much.

Any guidance as to how I should do that sort of thing in the future?

[Spoonweaver]

I think that was perfectly fine. Well done in fact.
If there's a unknown reason that a specific roll needs to be handled differently. (say the assassin behind you noticing you're lost) I'll find a way to let you know.

[polkakitty]

It occurs to me that a lumber mill would be an essential thing for a growing settlement like Phandalin to have, and I bet Mug's family's signpainting business would be set up near it.  So maybe Mug could make a Perception check to look for a building that looks like a lumber mill, and then go in that direction.  He could look for a building that's shaped kind of like a barn and has one of those tracks going into one side of it where the logs go in (is that even a real thing or is that just in cartoons?  I dunno, man, the only thing I know how to do is tell computers what to do.)

James would have to choose whether or not to try that rather than me, though.

[Spoonweaver]

not to change any judgements being made, as choices are your own and your characters
But something I thought I'd bring up is that in 5th edition monster's CR ratings and stats are a lot different in many cases than their 3.5 counterparts. So dont make decision based on how strong a monster is based on past D&D knowledge if not familiar with 5th ed.

That said, yes this is a dangerous monster.


oh and @polkakitty, no there's not really much cover where you are.
I'll put the battle map up soon. assuming that's what happens

[Spoonweaver]

Everyone that wants to sneak up towards the monster make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.

[Mogri]

Jenny is actually proficient in stealth, but if the plan is to trick it with an illusion, there's not much reason for her to advance.

[polkakitty]

not to change any judgements being made, as choices are your own and your characters
But something I thought I'd bring up is that in 5th edition monster's CR ratings and stats are a lot different in many cases than their 3.5 counterparts. So dont make decision based on how strong a monster is based on past D&D knowledge if not familiar with 5th ed.

That said, yes this is a dangerous monster.

I wasn't thinking about the situation in terms of the manticore's stats or official challenge rating so much as the fact that we don't have any way to counter the manticore's flying ability.  As long as it's in the air, it has an overwhelming advantage in a fight because the only people who can even potentially hit it are me and maybe Fifi, depending on what spells she has and whether she has a bow.

(I guess I could potentially increase the party's damage output by giving my crossbow to Jenny, who has proficiency in it and has higher Dexterity than Mug, and throwing knives at the manticore myself, but I'd most likely have disadvantage on every attack roll, making it a marginal increase at best, and that would only work if the manticore stayed within 60 feet of me.)

Also, assuming range wasn't an issue, I think the outcome of the battle would mostly be determined by whether Spoonweaver assumed the manticore was smart enough to focus down one character at a time, or whether they just had it attack people at random.  And with no cover, and with the manticore's tail spike attack having a longer range than any of our Dash, a player who had already been badly wounded wouldn't be able to do anything to prevent themself being finished off.

(And manticores are actually kind of a weird example, when it comes to what tactics to expect from them, because they're established as being smarter than ordinary animals, and able to talk, but not as smart as the average humanoid or able to form a culture.  I think it's inherently ambiguous what they might do in any situation.)

I don't even really object to going up against overly powerful monsters, because I think the best thing about D&D is coming up with a cunning plan to beat enemies and accomplish things that wouldn't normally seem possible.  I was just frustrated because it didn't seem like I had any tools available to use for a non-obvious approach to this situation, and since I'm not familiar with Spoonweaver's DMing style, I hesitated to take a chance on what behaviour they might give enemies.

(The situation kind of feels like a karmic punishment for my hubris, actually, since the reason I wanted to play a Gnome Ranger was to have a flying mount, but it's shou ga nai.)

Also, in case anyone's wondering why I said I have the same spell as Fifi in my last in-character post, being a Forest Gnome gives me the ability to cast Minor Illusion.  (I don't have any other spells or cantrips until level 2.)

[Spoonweaver]

Mistakes were made!

So, I have to apologize for something I said earlier in regards to cover and things to hide behind. The module does not mention them and as I looked at he map I didn't full grasp they were there.

So, there ARE some ruins. and also a small wooden fence.
However, my answer to the question of is there any cover you could have hidden behind is still correct in saying there's not.
The wooden fence is small and would barely hold a sheep back let alone this monster. The ruins right in front of the windmill are all basically just rough terrain except for a single 5 foot block, which is what I didn't notice until I was mapping things out. So there IS a 5ft by 5ft block of stone ruin right near the entrance to the windmill.
However, I still think int he spirit of the original question I was answering correctly as the cover was right next to the manticore.

Regardless, the sneaking didn't matter as the manticore was hyper focused.


Also, I took the liberty of moving the other members of the group forward a little. If you'd like to retcon this I fully understand, but I think it's for everyone's benefit if every moved up at least a little. and no one was specifically staying as far away from things as they could, so.

[Spoonweaver]

mistakes were made again...
I didn't notice until just now that there was not 1 but 4 posts that took place as I was posting my update
So I've retcon'd my post a bit


To add: I think I'm missing the nature of the plan and I don't want to jump to conclusions. The monster is distracted and a little bit away from you and the windmill. what now?

[Mogri]

I think we were going to rescue the lady from the windmill without getting into a fight.

[polkakitty]

I think I'm missing the nature of the plan and I don't want to jump to conclusions. The monster is distracted and a little bit away from you and the windmill. what now?

Well, my plan was originally that, by distracting the manticore and getting its attention away from the midwife, we could create an opportunity for her to get out of the windmill safely, and then, instead of fighting the manticore, we'd all run like hell until we got to a thickly forested area, or someplace where we couldn't be easily tracked from the air. But I hadn't really thought about how long the manticore would *stay* distracted, or how being level 1, none of us have access to other spells that would help with this like Invisibility. Now that we're facing the prospect of trying to run down the hill, from an enemy that can move faster than any of us, I'm starting to think the best thing to do might actually be to try to get inside the windmill and use it for cover while we fight the manticore. At least, after I complained so much about there being no cover, I feel like I can't just ignore an opportunity to have cover when it presents itself.

About trying to get into the windmill, though, there's one thing that's kind of embarrassing about that. When I created my character, I made a custom "Field Agent" background that gives him proficiency with thieves' tools, since Bometrus would be trained to snoop around and find things hidden in criminals' hideouts. But I forgot to actually buy a set of thieves' tools when I bought my initial equipment. Can we retcon that and have me spend 25 GP out of my leftover money on a set of thieves' tools, and just say I've had it all along? (Though the front door to the windmill will probably also be barricaded anyway.)

Actually, since Mug was able to recall that the midwife sold potions, maybe the best thing to do might be to ask to borrow some Potions of Heroism or something from her. Perhaps after applying some.... persuasion. It would only make sense for Mug to do that, though, because he's the only one who's been to Phandalin before or knows about the midwife's potion business.

[Spoonweaver]

Sounds like you came tot he conclusion I was thinking of.
You're all not in the combat yet.
But think of the current time as pre-combat.
In it's description, minor illusion says that "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it."
The manticore has just attacked the illusion and passed through it.
It has not seen the group yet and has not fully taken it's eyes off the illusion yet.

As far as getting into the windmill with thieves tools. You haven't directly examined the door yet, but the manticore has done a lot of damage to the opening but it's a large creature trying to get through an opening for a medium sized creature. Bometrus is a small gnome. You won't need the thieves tools.

[polkakitty]

James' idea of throwing flour in the manticore's eyes to blind it is certainly a good one, and my first thought about this situation was to try to find a way to blow a cloud of flour at the manticore and then set it on fire so it explodes, but without the Gust of Wind spell, I couldn't think of anything we could use to launch enough flour into the air (and, for that matter, I couldn't think of a way to make sure the explosion wouldn't just blow up the entire windmill along with all of us.)

Upon thinking about it again, though, I came up with something else. If we could just make the manticore get stuck somehow as it squeezes through the door, that would negate both of the big advantages it has over us: its mobility and its tail spike attack.

I figured that, since the stones around the front door are already being pulled apart, it might be feasible for us to position ourselves so the manticore can only get halfway through the door (well, really, it might be feasible for Mug to do that, since with Fifi's low HP and AC, that would be a lot riskier for her than anyone else, and I'm a Small creature, so by RAW at least, the manticore can just walk right over me,) and then for Jenny to make a Strength check to knock down more of the rocks onto the manticore and trap it. (It would be Spoonweaver's call how feasible it is for anyone to do that, but with her Barbarian Rage, Jenny has an overwhelmingly better chance of succeeding at any sort of Strength check than any of the rest of us.)

So, does anyone else have any suggestions for a plan to try?

[Bob the Hamster]

Oops! I stopped getting e-mail notifications for posts in these threads, and wondered why nothing was happening.

I was wondering what would be the mechanics of fighting the beast just as it squeezes through the door?

It couldn't dodge, would we get advantage, it a to hit bonus?

It would be parttially constricted, would it get disadvantage or a to hit penalty against us?