Feedback for a Nutty Idea

Pepsi Ranger · Post by **Pepsi Ranger** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:08 am

Hey Guys,

So, we're almost two months into Heart of the OHR 2020. Most of you participating are either well into your productions, or have already submitted an entry. I'm assuming you're working on an RPG, per the rules of the contest.

Every season, we get one or two games that want to enter, but we go through a debate on whether it's acceptable, per the rules. Most of the time I end up bending the rules just enough to not break an entrant's heart (see what I did there?).

But what if we don't have to bend the rules?

And what if we don't have to wait every two years to work on that dream game?

And what if we don't have to change gears every season to start work on a game that we shelve until the next Heart of the OHR (because I know that's what some of you do)?

Most of you know by now that I'm running out of steam as the host of Heart of the OHR. While I may still bring it back in 2022, I'm tempted to either shorten it to five months (like the original contest) or pass it off to a new host. But while I'm not sure exactly what I'll do, I do wonder if the discussion of Heart of the OHR's future could allow for an opportunity to open up a sister contest every odd-numbered year, beginning in 2021, for all of the games that Heart of the OHR would normally (if the rules are followed) reject.

Things like:

- Concept games
- Pure side-scrollers
- Puzzle games
- Anything without level progression
- Games that can be finished in under 30 minutes

And so on.

While it should still carry some element of prestige (read: Still no "terrible" or joke games), it could be the OHR contest that demonstrates the OHR's ability to stretch beyond the RPG.

What would we call it?

Well, of course it would be called . . .

Spleen of the OHR.

What do you guys think?

I'm tempted to give it a test run in 2021 to see how it goes. It would be much shorter than Heart of the OHR (either two or three months during the summer), but it would still have the same general support value: user submitted prizes, vote by averages, detailed score and ranking report at the end of the contest, though likely on a much smaller scale since part of the reason Heart of the OHR is biannual is because we all need the break.

Let me know your opinions on this idea. Tentatively, if I experiment with a contest like this, it would begin in June 2021, end in late August or mid-September, and would utilize the window system, which means you could take an old concept you started ten years ago, improve on it (after you finish your Heart of the OHR entry), and release it in the summer as an entry.

The primary difference between Heart and Spleen would really come down to commitment and genre. Heart has always been about the RPG and carries a more significant weight on the amount of time involved in a game's creation. Spleen could be about everything else (though you could still have level progressions if you need them) and be less restrictive on length and story requirements. And due to the smaller release window, it could be used as a source of inspiration or just letting off steam from the intense development cycle given to another game.

If any of you have been around for the old 48-hour contest, it would be like that, but span three months and not have a restrictive start time.

Okay, so tell me what you think. Would this work? Would you want to participate? Would you want to host?

Again, this is just an idea and not something I'm committing to. We're basically using this as a sounding board to see whether this is worth giving a try. But if there is enough support for it, I may run it for the first season to see how it goes and then decide from there if we bring it back in 2023 and if we can find a more permanent host for it. Let me know your thoughts below.

SwordPlay · Post by **SwordPlay** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:07 am

great idea and I love it! but... is the name open to debate?
maybe it could be called "Nut of the OHR"? "Gonads of the OHR"? "Womb of the OHR"?

kylekrack · Post by **kylekrack** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:00 am

I'm greatly in favor of evolving the hotohr into something that accepts a broader range of submissions. For a number of reasons.

1. The engine is continually receiving new features that support the development of non-rpg games.
2. Pushing exclusivity--the ohr as an rpg engine--doesn't help expand the community in numbers and diversity. The hotohr has become a cornerstone of the community, and allowing other genres will include those who otherwise wouldn't feel a part of hotohr.
3. Making RPGs is hard. Really hard. For some more than others. I for one, always find myself working on something other than an RPG when hotohr rolls around. I have to force myself to come up with a concept for a new RPG project every 2 years.
4. Think about all the cool new entries we'd have! Playing through diverse submissions will give a bit of fresh air (let's be honest, playing 10 RPGs in a row is exhausting). From an outside perspective, the hotohr (rather, the new name for it) will look less like a niche gamedev community, and more open to all kinds of indie dev.

All that being said, I fully support translating the content-based rules into allowing a broader range of genres. For example, some kind of gameplay time requirement. Not that, necessarily, but something to quantify and ascertain a level of quality to maintain the integrity of the contest. I support maintaining integrity.

ArtimusBena · Post by **ArtimusBena** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:14 am

DEATH TO RPGS

Pepsi Ranger · Post by **Pepsi Ranger** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:40 am

SwordPlay wrote:great idea and I love it! but... is the name open to debate?
maybe it could be called "Nut of the OHR"? "Gonads of the OHR"? "Womb of the OHR"?

Haha, I knew someone would suggest this (and exactly this) at some point. For it to be the very first response (and only option) is priceless. Good job. :p

Anyway, no.

kylekrack wrote:I'm greatly in favor of evolving the hotohr into something that accepts a broader range of submissions. For a number of reasons.

1. The engine is continually receiving new features that support the development of non-rpg games.
2. Pushing exclusivity--the ohr as an rpg engine--doesn't help expand the community in numbers and diversity. The hotohr has become a cornerstone of the community, and allowing other genres will include those who otherwise wouldn't feel a part of hotohr.
3. Making RPGs is hard. Really hard. For some more than others. I for one, always find myself working on something other than an RPG when hotohr rolls around. I have to force myself to come up with a concept for a new RPG project every 2 years.
4. Think about all the cool new entries we'd have! Playing through diverse submissions will give a bit of fresh air (let's be honest, playing 10 RPGs in a row is exhausting). From an outside perspective, the hotohr (rather, the new name for it) will look less like a niche gamedev community, and more open to all kinds of indie dev.

All that being said, I fully support translating the content-based rules into allowing a broader range of genres. For example, some kind of gameplay time requirement. Not that, necessarily, but something to quantify and ascertain a level of quality to maintain the integrity of the contest. I support maintaining integrity.

To be clear, this would run as an alternate to Heart of the OHR. It wouldn't replace it. The advantage to having both would be that those who really don't want to add RPG elements to a side-scroller just to participate in Heart of the OHR would no longer have to. At the same time, those who just want to make RPGs can still have a contest that encourages them to keep building.

I'm also thinking that eliminating the time requirement for Spleen would mean that some designers could make a simple arcade-style game that's more about the score than the story. I think I AM BEAN BOY is a game that would probably benefit from a contest like this, for example. But I'm also thinking of long-form non-RPGs, like Tim-Tim 2, for example. I think a game like that definitely makes a strong case for a contest like this (and why I think it's worth trying).

But yeah, I'd still want entrants to take their games seriously. That's the main thing I'd want if this were to happen. The entries would still need to have a clear ending, even if it's a demo ending. I wouldn't want sketches of an idea to enter. I'd want them to be actual games with actual progress and actual endings, whether they're complete or not. So those conventions would persist across both contests.

Spoonweaver · Post by **Spoonweaver** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:40 pm

I completely hate the idea.
I think the Heart of the OHR is too long and seems to affect what people make and how they view their own work.
Take the response to RMZ stating he's entering Axe Cop into the contest.

everyone who was considering entering just started quaking in their boots

It may have been meant as a joke, but there was a lot of truth in that statement.
Now, I don't think the HotOHR should stop. But I don't think we need more of it.

Also!
We should FOR SURE not have a big contest focused on non rpg games. It would exclude too many people in an already small community. It just seems like a place to put the other good games that you feel like are already being excluded, but this solution involves more exclusion.

Finally, this is just my opinion and you gonna do what you gonna do.
For the name though, of the organs in the body why would anyone pick the Spleen? When you think of important organs with alternative meanings there are clear forerunners and they aren't Spleen. If you want it to be serious then the clear answer is Brain. Not only is this a better organ but it speaks of the high level of skill needed to make non-rpgs on an rpg engine.
It's so clear that it should be the Brain of the OHR contest that I'm confused that no one said it yet.

Oh and PS you already cleared Tim-Tim 2 to be in the HotOHR contest.
It meets all the requirements.

Post by **TMC** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:39 pm

I've heard people say they don't want to run a contest at the same time as an existing one (HotOHR). Which kind of misses the point that HotOHR is only a release window, and starting early is not discouraged, but it's understandable why it causes that reaction. So having a really long release window may be counter-productive. Maybe you should just do away with the start date, just have a deadline (Dec 1st), and accept any game released since the last contest (which is entered by its creator?)

I've also heard people say they're putting off working on their RPG to align with the next HotOHR. That's how big a deal this contest is! So accepting releases since the last contest should also fix that.

If any of you have been around for the old 48-hour contest

It's been too long since the last 48-houir contest and it should be run again! The 48 hour and the Random Collab contests were so much fun (a lot of the time, but not always).

Anyway, I like the sound of a contest that encourages me to dig up an old game and update or finish it, because I've... err... never created an RPG since my first couple newbie games. But I've certainly got a lot of unfinished games which I do want to resume but never had an excuse to.

(However, for ordinary contests not allowing early starting, I think three months is exactly the wrong timespan, it's too long and just tempts people to procrastinate. I feel like one month is close to the max reasonable length.)

...

As for HotOHR 2022, if you don't want to host it, that's fair enough. But I'd like to see it come back, under a new host if needed, so would likely be willing to host it if necessary.

Spoonweaver · Post by **Spoonweaver** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:50 pm

I think the best thing would be to turn the whole thing, after this year
into a game of the year award.

OHR Game of the Year
Heart of the OHR award, for the best RPG of the year
Big Brain Award, for best non RPG of the year
Ham-ster Award, best joke game of the year

and we do this every year, and I'll send out trophies
this is something we already sort of do/did with the review contest, but no prizes
I think Game of the Year would mean more to people outside the OHR too.
You tell them something was the OHR Game of the Year 2020 and they might give it a play

Anyways, I was going to sort of propose this next year, or next HotOHR ( provided I don't vanish again due to personal stuff )
But since we're talking about it, I figured I'd talk about it

kylekrack · Post by **kylekrack** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:30 pm

I suppose I don't understand the idea behind separating RPGs from all other genres, at this point. One contest that's just for RPGs and another for everything else just seems weirdly polarizing. One of the big purposes of the contest is to encourage people to work on their games. If the contest is considering any changes, they should support that goal. Arbitrarily excluding certain genres does not, in my opinion, support that goal.

A game of the year sounds like a good idea, aside from everything else. I agree that it'd look good for the recipient of that title to have that award on their game, for marketing purposes, etc. It's a good way for the community to recognize excellence that emerges from our midst.

SwordPlay · Post by **SwordPlay** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:49 pm

I like the idea of different qualifying criteria/categories rather than separate contests.
That makes a lot more sense to me.

Realistically, any well-made project could keep entering and winning each HOTOHR, if it were updated etc., and kept outclassing the competition.
Then what's the point in entering your own game, unless you already have several years of work done on it?
It'd be really difficult to catch up to, say, VOM, KBB or Axe Cop, since their creators have (professionally) invested so much time, work, and even money, along with help from others.
It'd be nice if we could all be winners

As for the name, I agree with Spoony. Spleen is considered almost redundant. LITERALLY.
Then comparing it to "Heart" it's just down-right insulting.
You can live without a Spleen. You can't live without a Heart. Deep meaning?
However, perhaps there is some argument to be made from historical usage
Real sliming' Shakespearian

I was going to suggest "Brain" (honestly!) but I thought it would be contrived in this context.
Really, what's to say that "this" is the "heart" and "that" is the "brain"?
apart from being nearly completely arbitrary!?
And again, it becomes kind of insulting. Or maybe I'm easily offended?

p.s. "Nut" of the OHR is a reference to this thread's title, not ejaculate. But that as well.

Post by **Bob the Hamster** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:05 am

I wish I had more time for making games!

That is all I have to contribute to this thread at this time :)

Pepsi Ranger · Post by **Pepsi Ranger** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:13 am

Spoonweaver wrote:I think the best thing would be to turn the whole thing, after this year
into a game of the year award.

OHR Game of the Year
Heart of the OHR award, for the best RPG of the year
Big Brain Award, for best non RPG of the year
Ham-ster Award, best joke game of the year

and we do this every year, and I'll send out trophies
this is something we already sort of do/did with the review contest, but no prizes
I think Game of the Year would mean more to people outside the OHR too.
You tell them something was the OHR Game of the Year 2020 and they might give it a play

Anyways, I was going to sort of propose this next year, or next HotOHR ( provided I don't vanish again due to personal stuff )
But since we're talking about it, I figured I'd talk about it

This all sounds worth a try. I like it.

I may be in favor of letting this replace Heart of the OHR in 2022 if we, as a community, can commit to having a Game of the Year contest in the vein of what you're describing. It would certainly allow developers more freedom to participate.

Alternatively, if people still want Heart of the OHR 2022, we can discuss it after we've had the first Game of the Year Contest.

Spoonweaver · Post by **Spoonweaver** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:39 am

Pepsi Ranger wrote: Alternatively, if people still want Heart of the OHR 2022, we can discuss it after we've had the first Game of the Year Contest.

good plan
a trial run in 2021

Assuming the world is still here in 2021 and we haven't all died from Covid-20, been killed by massive earthquakes causing the world to fall into the sea, or been overrun by Space Hornets.

Rue · Post by **Rue** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:34 am

I let this thread stir in my head a bit.

I've noticed atleast twice this week two really great contest ideas come up in discord that would have been awesome, but would ultimately distract from HoTOHR games. I know that's not the intent, but man, that's a real bummer.

Same with projects too. It's dangerous to try an experimental project or spend a lot of time helping others if your goal is to make the best possible project. The extended time might have been there to help with that, but ultimately it may have just meant a longer period that people are unavailable.

I think maybe a remedy to turn this around is to yeah, break it up a bit. Do an annual award show. Trophies for different distinctions. Best finished game is a given all years, but trophy categories could be randomly drawn (entered by the community). Then community voting takes place immediately when the categories are revealed. All games posted on slime salad for that year would be eligible.

I also would nominate a "heart of the ohr" award that stays around, for the game that stays truest to the engine. I've always liked that about the contest.

Re: splitting RPGs from every other genre. I think it happens because the making RPGs in the ohr is the 'default'. IMHO it didn't mean it's the easiest. It's hard to make a good RPG that people want to play these days.

Edit: Hey, I hope this didn't come off as hostile. I posted it really late at night and as I read it again I realized I might have come off as rude. Sorry about that! It's something I'm working on.