Keymapping has always been a bit of a controversial issue. Daggerfall's default controls still make me shudder. But you all have such great insight on design. I'd be happy to get some input.
While the OHR's default keymapping makes sense, (eg. space and enter are a very natural "confirm," etc.) it's not super efficient spatially. Stretching your hand from the esc key to spacebar/control isn't totally ergonomic. There are solid standards at this point for certain genres. First person games all do WASD+mouse+E or something like that, but there doesn't seem to be a clear standard or default for keyboard-only games at this point. I know some, like Undertale, use the z,x,c + arrow keys mapping, and this makes sense, but I'm not sure how universally understood even that is. I'm talkin' any ole chump can pick up the game and guess the controls within 1-2 tries.
I don't get out much, so I don't know a lot of games. What are some games you know of that have really natural keyboard controls? The answer might be "most people use a gamepad!" but I'm curious to hear other options.
Standard or Comfortable Keymapping
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Standard or Comfortable Keymapping
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FnrrfYgmSchnish
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Aside from running away from battle, you can just use ALT for anything ESC could do.
I've always used CTRL (or spacebar, forgot about the spacebar when I first wrote this... actually I think I use spacebar more than CTRL now that I think about it) and ALT for the basic use and cancel keys, and ESC only for running (in games that even have the default running enabled; a few of mine do away with that entirely and add a Run command to the battle menu instead, so there's no reason to ever reach for ESC. I'm sure there's other games that have done something along those lines, too, I just don't play other people's OHR games often enough to know off the top of my head. XD)
I actually didn't even know ESC could be used as an alternate cancel key for years, since it made so much more sense to use the CTRL and ALT keys since they're right near each other and I'm pretty sure I remember a lot of other (non-OHR) games using CTRL+ALT as the two main buttons back in the day.
I've always used CTRL (or spacebar, forgot about the spacebar when I first wrote this... actually I think I use spacebar more than CTRL now that I think about it) and ALT for the basic use and cancel keys, and ESC only for running (in games that even have the default running enabled; a few of mine do away with that entirely and add a Run command to the battle menu instead, so there's no reason to ever reach for ESC. I'm sure there's other games that have done something along those lines, too, I just don't play other people's OHR games often enough to know off the top of my head. XD)
I actually didn't even know ESC could be used as an alternate cancel key for years, since it made so much more sense to use the CTRL and ALT keys since they're right near each other and I'm pretty sure I remember a lot of other (non-OHR) games using CTRL+ALT as the two main buttons back in the day.
Last edited by FnrrfYgmSchnish on Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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SwordPlay
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I tend to use Esc/Enter + Arrow Keys and I think these are the first keys anyone will think to try out.
It also matters if you add in a bunch of buttons, like e.g, hotkeys, but for most games, its hard to get simpler or more classic than arrow keys+Ent+Esc
But I honestly dislike using keys like Alt. Ctrl, Esc and even Space/Enter/Arrow Keys etc., because sometimes they can (rarely) interfere with other active programs, or accidental presses/combinations can make weird things happen with the OS and so on. It's difficult to anticipate each users set-up or environment. There are a lot of cases!
Of course gamepads are in their own league
It tends to provide a superior and dedicated interface. I'm just a snob hah.
But more users have keyboards than controllers, I assume (even though gamers tend to buy controllers), so I prefer to think in terms of a keyboard.
Still gamepads let you press like 6-10 buttons at once (if you don't mind mashing/smearing the face buttons) is incredibly ergonomic, provides extra features like rumble and analog sticks and is generally makes more efficient use of fingers/hand than a keyboard.
What it lacks in flexibility it makes up for in ease of use.
Keyboards allow for, imaginatively, 20-40 keys/buttons, far more than gamepads and without even using key combinations.
But gamepads are laid out far more intuitively and provide a more seamless interface
The use of a gamepad to activate and navigate submenus or button combinations to access context/pop-up menus, reduces the need for unique buttons streamlines the experience and makes it a viable contender for intended input peripheral.
Basically combinations of buttons increases its potential.
But I tend not to use my controller despite having and preferring it. In some cases because a lack of support.
I find using keys like WASD+Q/E, and Z/X/C to be practical enough.
Z/X/C is an increasingly popular option especially for indie games, for many years now, but somewhat non-obvious.
It goes well with WASD and lets you play a game with just 1 hand. But it's cramped. Using Q and E keys with WASD works a little better.
I guess it matters a lot whether people prefer WASD or arrow keys, which is usually about being left/right handed. It's more similar to the layout of a console controller and some people feel comfortable with specific configurations.
The arrow keys aren't really next to anything which can stop accidental presses.... but the potential travel distance is more. For controls all over the keyboard it's a pain!
On the other hand, some of the non-character keys are a little bigger (even massive), which might help users, and are also typically on the edges, factors which help prevent accidental presses. Me likey!
I find using the F Row (for e.g, menus), number keys (for e.g, hotkeys), or numpad (for direction), a good control scheme as well as typical.
It's increasingly popular to forego the numpad in some keyboard layouts, as well as typically omitted for e.g, laptops.
Really it's hard to beat a good key configuration thingie that lets users reassign keys or buttons. Optimally it accepts key combinations, not just keys! This raises the number of possibly unique buttons to make something like Caves of Qud playable with a controller.
Still when hardware support isn't there, or varies for differing controllers, ITS A PAIN IN THE SLIME. Some games only partially support a controller for example.
Then there's a mouse/touch interface. The simplest and most accessible, but not always easiest or fastest. Mouse combined with on-screen buttons, or programmable hotkeys is God-Tier. It also allows for the most precise controls in e.g, FPS games. Not all games support mouse scroll wheel, or wheel click, but when they do it helps provide an absolutely fantastic interface.
I can't imagine clicking and dragging a scroll bar on the screen tbh.
It's a little different with touch, if we get into multi-touch support.... which is pretty great but can get extremely messy, not to mention lack of uniform support across devices, but its basically stock nowadays.
On the downside, it hurts to jab a glass screen with your delicate fingers.
Keyboads also can hurt your wrist/fingers. Key travel distance matters a lot (to me. for some reason). I think most keyboards make you press far too hard/too much! I have a Red Switch Keyboard, which I haven't used much yet. I still use my K120 because I can type fast and quietly (kinda)
Gamepads allow the softest touch and input, and rarely by contacting with the tip of a finger, usually the side of a thumb or finger, which is way more comfortable and less painful!
Mouse Click/Wheel can be simple, and less strain comes from mouse-over or hover to perform things, but it can potentially annoy users if its too quick or slow.
You have more nerves in the tips of your fingers, so i try to avoid deadening them. I'm also wary of wrist/finger sprain. We end up contorting our hand using bad controls which can lead to serious issues.
Finally, controls taken too far can lead to severe injury. Look at professional gamers in e.g, Smash Bros... When people push the limits of interface peripherals, chasing frame perfect maneouvres and practicing precise controls... Yes they achieve superior play, but at what cost? It's a darn shame.
That's just for good controls which are abused by users, not mentioning bad controls which abuse users. But that's not the topic.
Oh and I guess I love typing in games, it feels great. On-screen keyboards are horrible.
One of my favourite interfaces is the programmable hotbar of Nethack on Android. It's one of the most complex key-based controls using a very simple touch input. Oh and it can use on-screen keyboard and context-driven controls (e.g, inventory)
idk why i wrote all this
It also matters if you add in a bunch of buttons, like e.g, hotkeys, but for most games, its hard to get simpler or more classic than arrow keys+Ent+Esc
But I honestly dislike using keys like Alt. Ctrl, Esc and even Space/Enter/Arrow Keys etc., because sometimes they can (rarely) interfere with other active programs, or accidental presses/combinations can make weird things happen with the OS and so on. It's difficult to anticipate each users set-up or environment. There are a lot of cases!
Of course gamepads are in their own league
It tends to provide a superior and dedicated interface. I'm just a snob hah. But more users have keyboards than controllers, I assume (even though gamers tend to buy controllers), so I prefer to think in terms of a keyboard.
Still gamepads let you press like 6-10 buttons at once (if you don't mind mashing/smearing the face buttons) is incredibly ergonomic, provides extra features like rumble and analog sticks and is generally makes more efficient use of fingers/hand than a keyboard.
What it lacks in flexibility it makes up for in ease of use.
Keyboards allow for, imaginatively, 20-40 keys/buttons, far more than gamepads and without even using key combinations.
But gamepads are laid out far more intuitively and provide a more seamless interface
The use of a gamepad to activate and navigate submenus or button combinations to access context/pop-up menus, reduces the need for unique buttons streamlines the experience and makes it a viable contender for intended input peripheral.
Basically combinations of buttons increases its potential.
But I tend not to use my controller despite having and preferring it. In some cases because a lack of support.
I find using keys like WASD+Q/E, and Z/X/C to be practical enough.
Z/X/C is an increasingly popular option especially for indie games, for many years now, but somewhat non-obvious.
It goes well with WASD and lets you play a game with just 1 hand. But it's cramped. Using Q and E keys with WASD works a little better.
I guess it matters a lot whether people prefer WASD or arrow keys, which is usually about being left/right handed. It's more similar to the layout of a console controller and some people feel comfortable with specific configurations.
The arrow keys aren't really next to anything which can stop accidental presses.... but the potential travel distance is more. For controls all over the keyboard it's a pain!
On the other hand, some of the non-character keys are a little bigger (even massive), which might help users, and are also typically on the edges, factors which help prevent accidental presses. Me likey!
I find using the F Row (for e.g, menus), number keys (for e.g, hotkeys), or numpad (for direction), a good control scheme as well as typical.
It's increasingly popular to forego the numpad in some keyboard layouts, as well as typically omitted for e.g, laptops.
Really it's hard to beat a good key configuration thingie that lets users reassign keys or buttons. Optimally it accepts key combinations, not just keys! This raises the number of possibly unique buttons to make something like Caves of Qud playable with a controller.
Still when hardware support isn't there, or varies for differing controllers, ITS A PAIN IN THE SLIME. Some games only partially support a controller for example.
Then there's a mouse/touch interface. The simplest and most accessible, but not always easiest or fastest. Mouse combined with on-screen buttons, or programmable hotkeys is God-Tier. It also allows for the most precise controls in e.g, FPS games. Not all games support mouse scroll wheel, or wheel click, but when they do it helps provide an absolutely fantastic interface.
I can't imagine clicking and dragging a scroll bar on the screen tbh.
It's a little different with touch, if we get into multi-touch support.... which is pretty great but can get extremely messy, not to mention lack of uniform support across devices, but its basically stock nowadays.
On the downside, it hurts to jab a glass screen with your delicate fingers.
Keyboads also can hurt your wrist/fingers. Key travel distance matters a lot (to me. for some reason). I think most keyboards make you press far too hard/too much! I have a Red Switch Keyboard, which I haven't used much yet. I still use my K120 because I can type fast and quietly (kinda)
Gamepads allow the softest touch and input, and rarely by contacting with the tip of a finger, usually the side of a thumb or finger, which is way more comfortable and less painful!
Mouse Click/Wheel can be simple, and less strain comes from mouse-over or hover to perform things, but it can potentially annoy users if its too quick or slow.
You have more nerves in the tips of your fingers, so i try to avoid deadening them. I'm also wary of wrist/finger sprain. We end up contorting our hand using bad controls which can lead to serious issues.
Finally, controls taken too far can lead to severe injury. Look at professional gamers in e.g, Smash Bros... When people push the limits of interface peripherals, chasing frame perfect maneouvres and practicing precise controls... Yes they achieve superior play, but at what cost? It's a darn shame.
That's just for good controls which are abused by users, not mentioning bad controls which abuse users. But that's not the topic.
Oh and I guess I love typing in games, it feels great. On-screen keyboards are horrible.
One of my favourite interfaces is the programmable hotbar of Nethack on Android. It's one of the most complex key-based controls using a very simple touch input. Oh and it can use on-screen keyboard and context-driven controls (e.g, inventory)
idk why i wrote all this
Last edited by SwordPlay on Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:29 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Nathan Karr
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I have always used spacebar as my main Use key and alt as my main menu key the entire time I've used the OHR; to me, spacebar has always been the first key I would try when playing a new PC game because it's huge and right at the botttom so I always figured it'd have something major mapped to it more than likely. Alt being right next to space would often be one of the ones I'd try afterward.
...for years I didn't know you could escape from battle with the Esc key, thought the only "flee" option was the F4 key. And now that's not even the debug key for the command anymore!
...for years I didn't know you could escape from battle with the Esc key, thought the only "flee" option was the F4 key. And now that's not even the debug key for the command anymore!
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Funny fact: I discovered a couple months ago that Tab can be used to run from battle instead of ESC!FnrrfYgmSchnish wrote:Aside from running away from battle, you can just use ALT for anything ESC could do.
Back in the days of DOS (where I spent most time playing games) I think it was most common to start with assigning Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Enter and Space, and find other buttons like function keys if those weren't enough. Avoiding the letters is good, no worries about keyboard layouts. But Ctrl/Alt/Shift has gotten FAR worse as a control scheme since Windows and Context keys were added to keyboards :(
These days Z, X, C are quite common but I don't remember them being used much in the DOS days. If your game uses just arrows + z,x,c,v + esc that's highly discoverable. Everyne uses ESC. It is too far away though, so an alternative like alt is good.
Number keys are very commonly used for hotkeys to use items or skills or switch weapons, both in keyboard-only and keyboard-and-mouse games.
Function keys are also fairly common for switching between different modes, accessing menus, and sometimes actual gameplay stuff like switching weapons?
In the OHR you don't want to lose access to the debug keys. What you can trivially do is disable debug keys but script F8 (debug menu) or any other key to run the "debug menu" command. Or have a prefix key like Tab which you have to press before pressing a F# key to make it behave like a debug key.
It's actually pretty common that I come across games or programs where I just can't work out the controls without looking them up.
The keyboard controls in Custom are certainly inconsistent.
Last edited by TMC on Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bob the Hamster
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Built-in keyboard remapping support is definitely something that would be nice to have.
I think TMC has a plan for this, so I won't speak on details, but I kind of imagine that it would support a few things
* Letting the game author define different default keyboard mappings-- including the ability to have multiple keys do the same thing, so you could set up a game to be able to use WASD and Arrow keys simultaneously.
* Providing an optional user-interface so players can re-map the keys themselves
* Letting the author define a list of scripted keys (so that they won't be available when remapping keys)
* Letting the author define a list of special extra keys that can be used in scripts, but in a way that could support remapping
Those are just be thinking out loud, that is not a real implementation plan ;)
I think TMC has a plan for this, so I won't speak on details, but I kind of imagine that it would support a few things
* Letting the game author define different default keyboard mappings-- including the ability to have multiple keys do the same thing, so you could set up a game to be able to use WASD and Arrow keys simultaneously.
* Providing an optional user-interface so players can re-map the keys themselves
* Letting the author define a list of scripted keys (so that they won't be available when remapping keys)
* Letting the author define a list of special extra keys that can be used in scripts, but in a way that could support remapping
Those are just be thinking out loud, that is not a real implementation plan ;)
Please keep the keyboard layouts of other countries in mind! The French have a lot of è é ê where you don't have them and the Germans have z and y swapped. I had to change the keyboard layout of my Windows computer to play "Cave Story" properly, because the keys setup couldn't be changed.
Regarding the OHRRPGCE controls, I use my two beautifully shaped hands: The right one for the keys and Enter, the left one for ESC, which must be used in complex battles, where the order of the attackers is important or for running away.
Regarding the OHRRPGCE controls, I use my two beautifully shaped hands: The right one for the keys and Enter, the left one for ESC, which must be used in complex battles, where the order of the attackers is important or for running away.
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Nathan Karr
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In REALLY complex battles, it's important to have both Alt and Esc mapped on your controls: The former to delay/skip a turn on a character without risking a flee attempt and the latter to hold down and run away with.Bird wrote:Regarding the OHRRPGCE controls, I use my two beautifully shaped hands: The right one for the keys and Enter, the left one for ESC, which must be used in complex battles, where the order of the attackers is important or for running away.
Also, I'm all for a menu option to allow mapping/remapping keys in-game, as many PC games have done for upwards of three decades now. Since some people use plotscripts to custom-add other functions, this should absolutely be an opt-in feature.
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ChalkFlower
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