Art music in games?

TheJabbMachine · Post by **TheJabbMachine** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:46 pm

Should music be as convicting as the text in a game? Should music be carefully developing a complete texture during the course of the game as the story unfolds?

basically, I want people to discuss how to build an overall musical structure in their game. It's an overlooked aspect of game design, I figure.

oh, and hi.

Calehay · Post by **Calehay** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:04 am

If you really want my opinion, music has absolutely nothing to do with game design. Music is really just an added effect. People composing music for video games cannot give it the same treatment as "serious" or "concert" works because:

I. Time restraints - It takes a long time to write a magnum opus, but a short 3 minute diddy takes considerably less. Even if a "serious" piece is 3 minutes long, chances are that a "serious" composer is going to spend more time making decisions about things than the stressed out composer who needs to get their music in by a deadline trying to bang out a song. (I'm not saying that one works harder than the other, they both have very difficult jobs.)

II. Budget restraints - Concert composers get quite a bit for their works. While film/game composers can sometimes get even more (I'm looking at you, John Williams.) the amount of music they produce tends to be much more than that of a concert composer.

III. Music is not the main factor - The director/producer has a vision of how the game will be. The bad part about this is that most directors/producers have no idea what music is, and some of them try to manhandle the composer into doing what they want with vague descriptions. Also, music has to follow the pre-done game, which may not support what is the best path for the music. Would Wagner operas have the same effect if they were filmed with quick 30 second cues?

So no, I don't think there should be a "musical structure" to game music, in terms of the music itself. It must follow the form of what's given to it, but it should not take a life of its own.

TheJabbMachine · Post by **TheJabbMachine** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:27 am

I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Look at the music usage in FFX (if you dare

) the use of the theme song, 'To Zanarkand' in regards to the opening and the reintroduction (and the latter re orchestration) is highly effective as a unifying theme (and more importantly as a unifying mood).

Use of key plans, and motivic developments should surely be a vital part of a professional game composer's arsenal, no?

Post by **Fortis** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:39 am

I think it's an overlooked aspect of game design that doesn't really have anything to do with gameplay but more with the game as an overall 'experience'.

Skies of Arcadia was a fairly mediocre-if-not-fun RPG (which describes most RPGs, but I digress), but what stood out to me was that the Boss battle music changed depending on the context. There were three variations: one, the 'standard' music, would play when both the boss and the party's HP was relatively stable or at maximum, the other, the 'crisis' music, would play when the party was near death, and the third 'triumphant' music would play when the boss was at critical and the party wasn't. It was a nice touch that made the battles a little bit more immersive than they would have been otherwise.

More games should consider music as a part of the overall work of art.

TheJabbMachine · Post by **TheJabbMachine** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:46 am

I think the relationship between a composer and a game designer could be something similar to that between a composer and his librettist. Look and Mozart and La Ponte! After all, are operas and RPGs all that different?

Mazin · Post by **Mazin** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:39 am

Should music be as convicting as the text in a game?

I'm baffled by your use of the word "convicting" here, but if you're asking whether music should be as central to the experience as text, the answer is:

It can be, if you want. To what degree you use text, graphics, music, and gameplay to affect the player's emotions is totally up to you. You don't have to rely on one more than any other, it just depends on what you want to do with the game.

As far as building a "musical structure," I figure repeated themes probably helps there. Character themes, place themes, stuff like that. You can also use this to surprise the player with a change, like if a town has had one song throughout the entite game, and after some event in the town you change it to a song very different in mood (possibly using the same or a similar melody), the difference can be really striking.

Doing something dynamic, like Fortis' example, can be really cool. I figure you could vary the victory theme in that way too, like one if you win easily, one if you barely get by, one if someone's dead, etc.

You could even use this idea to integrate music into the gameplay: the current music affects the characters' moods (their stats, what attacks they can/can't perform, etc.), and certain abilities or items can change the music (the player and enemies can both do this). And then at the end of the battle, the victory music determines what rewards you get (more/less money, more/less experience, HP/MP regeneration, reviving, etc.). This would be impossible in the OHR battle engine as far as I know, but you could still involve the music with the battles in this way by letting the player "equip" a battle, boss battle, and victory theme. I figure you could do this with custom menus. They could find more songs as they go through the game, probably some would be secret. But this wouldn't be as cool as changing the music in the middle of the battle.

Calehay · Post by **Calehay** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:04 am

TheJabbMachine wrote:I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Look at the music usage in FFX (if you dare ) the use of the theme song, 'To Zanarkand' in regards to the opening and the reintroduction (and the latter re orchestration) is highly effective as a unifying theme (and more importantly as a unifying mood).

Use of key plans, and motivic developments should surely be a vital part of a professional game composer's arsenal, no?

"To Zanarkand" is a short little song with various settings. It has no interesting structural things about it. How they used the leitmotif in the dramatic work made it have the impact it had, and I have a feeling that had very little to do with Uematsu.

True motivic development would be wasted in a video game/film score because the audience doesn't care. You can point me to Star Wars all you want, but that's not true development, those are movie tricks. Williams's themes clue you into whoever is who on stage, but comparing that to some development section of some classical era sonata shows that he's hardly developing anything at all. The characters on screen are doing all of the developing, the composer is just helping along. That's why a short and simple motivic idea that the audience can grasp easily, like To Zanarkand, works much better than anything else would truly be.

And I feel that the scenes in FFX would have had the same effect if Uematsu composed different songs for each of these parts as long as they fit the mood of the scene. In fact, if FFX didn't even have music, it would still be a fun game, but some scenes wouldn't be as effective without the music to help the mood or suggest things.

The point of a composer in a game is to help mood. That has nothing to do with game design. And if a composer tries to make some grand gesture, that can very easily disrupt the mood, and will hurt everything as a whole. Game composers don't need to worry about structure the way a concert composer does if they can help the mood. It's great if a composer knows these things, but music for film and games (and for that matter, any sort of music accompanying a dramatic work.) cannot be approached in the same way.

And I'm pretty sure Nobuo Uematsu knows very little about key plans or any of that mumbo jumbo. He's a garage musician. Some of the most "talented" composers in film and games are the ones that don't know anything.

After all, are operas and RPGs all that different?

Music takes a higher place in the audiences' mind in an opera. In opera, music is there for most of the evening, and is the main way that the people on stage convey themselves to the audience. When it's a play, that's all gone, which is why there doesn't need to be music in plays, and if you just grab any old play off the shelf and set music to it, it's probably not going to work. Incidental music has much less importance than opera music, and it goes into the background. The same thing with games.

When we have the all singing RPG, I think we can make the comparison.

Mazin · Post by **Mazin** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:15 am

The point of a composer in a game is to help mood. That has nothing to do with game design.

Every single thing you put in a game is part of game design, and I'd say mood is one of the most important parts. I mean, affecting the player's feelings is kind of the whole point.

Newbie Newtype · Post by **Newbie Newtype** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:45 am

Just look to the Rocky movies for a good example of how to affect a person's mood. People wouldn't be nearly as pumped up or cheering on Rocky if it didn't have that awesome montage that helps personify his overcoming the odds.

Not to say that one should be lazy in the game play department, but if you're at the point where you have to make some music, then you can use the music to support the game play you've built.

A game with awesome game play but poor music would be like if you were Rocky, Jack Sparrow, or Luke Skywalker, and you didn't have that great musical score to back you up in the action sequences.

Calehay · Post by **Calehay** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:51 am

Iblis wrote:
The point of a composer in a game is to help mood. That has nothing to do with game design.
Every single thing you put in a game is part of game design, and I'd say mood is one of the most important parts. I mean, affecting the player's feelings is kind of the whole point.

A game designer rarely worries about music, and they shouldn't until everything else comes together. So I don't believe that music is a part of designing a game unless the game is musically related to the rules. It's an afterthought. If you want to argue that everything in the game is game design, then sure, you can think of it that way, but I just don't see throwing something in at the end can really count as design.

Mood is definitely important, but you can acheive mood without music. Music only helps things along.

Calehay · Post by **Calehay** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:55 am

KittenMaster wrote:Just look to the Rocky movies for a good example of how to affect a person's mood. People wouldn't be nearly as pumped up or cheering on Rocky if it didn't have that awesome montage that helps personify his overcoming the odds.

There could have been a successful way to do that without music. I never said mood wasn't important, but music does not define mood. It can help.

A game with awesome game play but poor music would be like if you were Rocky, Jack Sparrow, or Luke Skywalker, and you didn't have that great musical score to back you up in the action sequences.

Bad music is bad music, and it's going to stick out like a sore thumb. I think most pop music can show that music doesn't have to be musically "difficult" or "interesting" to be regarded as good.

Newbie Newtype · Post by **Newbie Newtype** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:04 am

Bad music is bad music, and it's going to stick out like a sore thumb. I think most pop music can show that music doesn't have to be musically "difficult" or "interesting" to be regarded as good.

Ack... I think I meant "NO music", but somehow had a brain fart.

Mazin · Post by **Mazin** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:05 am

A game designer rarely worries about music, and they shouldn't until everything else comes together. So I don't believe that music is a part of designing a game unless the game is musically related to the rules. It's an afterthought. If you want to argue that everything in the game is game design, then sure, you can think of it that way, but I just don't see throwing something in at the end can really count as design.

Throwing something in at the end is a kind of design insofar as extremely bad design is a kind of design.

I think you're probably right that a lot of game designers think of music that way, but what's really strange to me is that you say they should. Why? What's to be gained from treating music as something that doesn't matter? Why would it be a bad thing to get as much out of music that you can and make it really a part of the game as a whole?

Mood is definitely important, but you can acheive mood without music.

I agree that you can achieve mood in any number of ways, but you said:

The point of a composer in a game is to help mood. That has nothing to do with game design.

Which seems to argue:
Music is just there for mood, therefore it's not part of game design.

Which makes no sense. Why is mood not part of game design?

Newbie Newtype · Post by **Newbie Newtype** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:06 am

I agree that you can define mood without music (novels), but most people choose to use music to do it for RPGs, games, or movies, so I think we should help those that go down that route and give examples where it works, like I tried to.

Uncommon · Post by **Uncommon** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:19 am

I think you guys are overlooking probably the biggest baddest example of them all when it comes to musical structure being a huge part of the gaming experience (well hi there Earthbound), and even a massive part of the gameplay (Mother 3, i'm looking at you). Sure, making music critical to design is entirely optional, but when done can be oh so satisfying.