ITT: New Game Settings

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Nathan Karr
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ITT: New Game Settings

Post by Nathan Karr »

To be honest, every time something about the Create New Game default files is messed with, I tend to not like it.

I completely understand why the beautiful high-saturation default master palette was replaced with a newer, duller master palette that can better import photographic quality images without turning all or half of all flesh tones gray. I wouldn't mind just re-importing the old master palette or one of the half dozen sixteen color master palettes but then...

...The engine tries its best to re-map the user interface colors and box styles to match the new master palette, but them even simply being different palettes means there's going to be flaws here. It doesn't make any attempt to remap the palettes of sprites though - including the box edge sprites, which by default are plastered all over the place.

So every time I make a new game I need to change the master palette and then make some sort of alteration to the box edges.

Another one is the font. Getting extended pronunciation/currency characters and shrinking down the space taken by item icons makes sense, but when you go to make a new game, the default status effect icons are still set to the old default font's placements and not the new default font; poison is indicated with a lowercase j that has a straight tail, stun with a heart, mute with Pounds (the currency), and regen with a blank space rather than poison with a jolly roger, stun with a clock, mute with an empty word balloon, and regen with a heart. I think the default new game settings for these icons should line up with the new default font; game authors like myself who would rather use a different font can then go through the trouble of changing the icons (which I'm going to do anyway - I prefer sleep balloon to clock for stun indicator).

And then I go into the walkabouts and find three already there. All three are definitely pretty good (from Fnrrf's 8-bit graphics pack I think?) and thanks to their default palettes, look suitably distinct. Good for testing and stuff. They each have 7-color palettes and I'm not sure why...the first two each use 3 colors and the 3rd uses 4 (having separate hair and clothing colors). I also miss the consistency of reliably having Palette 0 always default in a new file to be the top 16 colors of the master palette, whatever that would be. Of course on the new master palette that's not a very good look since the top bar is just orange-browns; instead, it's the best approximation of the old top 16 from the old default master palette that can be done in the new master palette. This means when you change the default master palette, Pal 0 is going to be a mess of arbitrary colors all over the board since it doesn't remap; might as well just make this a single ugly brown gradient bar.

And of course, when you change your master palette, it also uglifies those three walkabouts.

When it comes to their inclusion, I don't really mind, but I'd prefer if they had a different placement. From long, long years of experience I think it's most convenient to make walkabout sprite 0 completely blank and start the "real" count at 1. And if we're using sprites from the 8-bit pack, why not one to four of the hero walkabouts and corresponding hero battle graphics also loaded by default into a new game? Maybe some monster sprites from there, too, like one of each size?

Or since it's our flagship game, some portion of Vikings graphics instead? Kitt, Bram, Frumpy, and Night each with one associated walkabout, hero set, weapon, and portrait; Cthulhu with his walkabout, portrait, and a Large Enemy sprite; some minor monsters (like one small, one medium) with a walkabout and a battle graphic.

How about including some of the old graphics from Sample/NPC_Tag/PStutor? I always thought those were nifty little simple sprites and the titles were also pretty good. It's my understanding that none of these were ever officially declared free to use; was there a reason for this other than their simplicity?

I always liked starting a new game and having all the graphics slots empty, then start drawing/importing more. I understand this can be quite intimidating to a new person, but so can starting up a new game and having too many options to choose from. I felt the best middle ground, when I was completely new, was to start with Sample.RPG as the base for my walkabouts, heroes, monsters, and tileset as I figured things out then went to New Game and drew things from scratch (or ripped as I felt appropriate). Is the point of the default walkabouts and box edge sprite to help newbies? If so, I think it could stand to be expanded and organized a little better; if not, I think it would be better to revert to having those fields blank on a new game, quickly doodling or importing walkabouts if needed for some specific test case. (Maybe including some box edges, walkabouts, monsters, and heroes in the Import folder?)

The default tileset I actually like. Just a grid pattern that tiles indefinitely on an unedited map screen, giving nice feedback on how many spaces apart things are. I think we can do one better though: I'd think it might help newbies more to have at least one pre-defined default wall object or maybe one for each type of passmap (I just took a couple screenshots of exactly that; combine this with the sand/grass/water from Sample and the space station stuff from PStutor and there's a pretty solid selection, especially with layering). Or to include an 8-bit graphics set/Vikings of Midgard tileset or two, depending on where we're going.




You know what would really help the box style editor? Just listing which box styles are hard-coded for which special screens (14 for Quit prompt, 0 for items menu, 1 for status screen is it? I can never remember - I usually just change them all to black if I think of it before I get too far into development). Being able to change the box style for different special screens would also be helpful, but reminder text for which ones are default/being used in this particular file would also be good.


...back when I was still actively working on Nintendo Quest, I de-fictionalized the hero sprite being shown in the abstracted version of the hero editor in Custom's Windows icon. I've attached those to this thread post as well. A bit silly, I know.
Attachments
Default passmap (I know O is still back-compat Overhead and not One-Way...yet)
Default passmap (I know O is still back-compat Overhead and not One-Way...yet)
aaa0001.png (1.76 KiB) Viewed 2285 times
One each for normal, block all directions, airship landing pad, boat dock, and one-way walls for each direction/shore edges for a coastline.
One each for normal, block all directions, airship landing pad, boat dock, and one-way walls for each direction/shore edges for a coastline.
aaa0000.png (1.55 KiB) Viewed 2285 times
A hero sprite I drew based on CUSTOM.EXE's Windows icon.
A hero sprite I drew based on CUSTOM.EXE's Windows icon.
Nintendo hero set 19.bmp (5.12 KiB) Viewed 2285 times
A walkabout sprite I drew based on CUSTOM.EXE's Windows icon.
A walkabout sprite I drew based on CUSTOM.EXE's Windows icon.
Nintendo walkabout 49.bmp (358 Bytes) Viewed 2285 times
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Post by FnrrfYgmSchnish »

And then I go into the walkabouts and find three already there. All three are definitely pretty good (from Fnrrf's 8-bit graphics pack I think?) and thanks to their default palettes, look suitably distinct. Good for testing and stuff. They each have 7-color palettes and I'm not sure why...the first two each use 3 colors and the 3rd uses 4 (having separate hair and clothing colors).
Ahhh, these guys are actually from the predecessor to the 8-bit graphics pack as it currently exists. They were going to be part of a game that never really got off the ground, so I put them in a Hamsterspeak article as free-to-use graphics.

That particular game-idea didn't follow NES-style 8-bit rules quite as strictly as the later set of graphics did, hence the one with an extra color compared to the rest.

Some time later I was asked if a few of them could be used as default sprites for new games, and it was mentioned that this old set of graphics was probably the most complete set of free-to-use graphics aside from Vikings... which led directly to me making the current 8-bit graphics pack (I was like "wait, those old graphics are super incomplete, nobody'd be able to make a full game with just those!" and immediately set off to correct that problem. And probably overdid it a bit. 😅)
FYS:AHS -- Working on Yagziknian NPC walkabout sprites
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Nathan Karr
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Post by Nathan Karr »

FnrrfYgmSchnish wrote:
And then I go into the walkabouts and find three already there. All three are definitely pretty good (from Fnrrf's 8-bit graphics pack I think?) and thanks to their default palettes, look suitably distinct. Good for testing and stuff. They each have 7-color palettes and I'm not sure why...the first two each use 3 colors and the 3rd uses 4 (having separate hair and clothing colors).
Ahhh, these guys are actually from the predecessor to the 8-bit graphics pack as it currently exists. They were going to be part of a game that never really got off the ground, so I put them in a Hamsterspeak article as free-to-use graphics.

That particular game-idea didn't follow NES-style 8-bit rules quite as strictly as the later set of graphics did, hence the one with an extra color compared to the rest.

Some time later I was asked if a few of them could be used as default sprites for new games, and it was mentioned that this old set of graphics was probably the most complete set of free-to-use graphics aside from Vikings... which led directly to me making the current 8-bit graphics pack (I was like "wait, those old graphics are super incomplete, nobody'd be able to make a full game with just those!" and immediately set off to correct that problem. And probably overdid it a bit. 😅)
And I had some free to use graphics I submitted to Hamsterspeak, but they weren't very good (except the tileset, that still holds up pretty well).

And of course, ever since your 8-bit graphics pack came out, I've been using the heck out of it. In fact if I knew about this older set I'd probably be using that, too. I don't think I've actually seen the article in question; my games usually aren't strict about the NES limitations (I put black pixels on Wizardbeth's walkabout sprite and sometimes I fill in characters' eyes/sprite gaps with black pixels if I can't be sure I've got a hero formation that prevents overlapping).

Stylistically, it fits the kind of games I like to make better than Vikings sprites usually do what with their 15 colors and full shading (I did use a few Vikings sprites in No Eat and of course Moron Mission was literally just an old version of Vikings mangled over the course of a week and given new text).

A bunch of the monster sprites for OHRodents consisted of me looking at Vikings of Midgard sprites in one window and MSPaint in another, trying to see how well I could convey the overall shapes of the sprites on three colors + black background; it's turned out super well so far.

One project I've started is basically to find everything in Vikings that doesn't have a 1:1 analog in the 8-bit pack and add sprites for that, too. Probably also redo all my own game heroes in that style (already done for Natalie and several variants of Nathan well enough. I did sprites for Kitt, Styrge and Frumpy from Vikings and then realized I'd gotten Kitt's armor asymmetry completely backwards so while his walkabout was an easy fix, I'll have to redo his hero sprite again).
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Post by Nathan Karr »

Personally, I just think the default included sprite selections are...well, just kinda baffling. I do still personally find it frustrating every time I go to make a new game and I've got three walkabouts I can barely tell apart loaded in there, one of them being a sprite occupying slot 0. Have I mentioned how I don't like the low-saturation default palette?

Basically the day I made this thread I was going to put together some examples of "default new game settings" (or at least included graphics) I felt might be more generally useful.

https://www.slimesalad.com/forum/viewgame.php?p=138369

So kinda like this: I'd rather open up a new game on a small but consistent set of graphics (probably not also full item/hero/enemy/attack definitions like I did here).

I had reasons for the selections I made when it came to both the heroes and the enemies.
- Choosing ranger over thief was purely done on a whim because I like rangers more and like thieves less, both can kinda fit the "agile, skill-focused hero" niche pretty well. I could've also done ninja instead.
- Warrior, cleric, and mage are pretty obvious.
- For the Vikings assets version, I went with Wolf Night instead of Human Night 100% because I think she's more attractive that way and I know there's a significant contingent of furry-leaning users in the OHR userbase.
- For the monsters I went with a small animal and a small plant to showcase the destructive nature of the natural world, skeleton as the most approachable type of undead, and dragon as a recognizeable large mythical beastie. Further, the squirrel has a knife and the skeleton is a medium-sized humanoid using a sword and a little bit of armor, examples of enemies that should drop items.
- The default element names are Fire, Ice, Lit, and Earth. I was within a hair of including a rock attack sprite as well.
- It was also a whim to define spells/attacks for two of the samples; for Vikings, giving Frumpy and Night two spells each, and giving Styrge's weapon the Mug attack (the way a lot of Fenrir's games would associate axes with banditry, particularly FFH where they simultaneously attack and steal items); for the 8-bit version, giving the Cleric 8 variants of his HEAL spell tied to level MP (each learned at the first level that spell slot would be available) and giving the Mage 3 attack spells and 3 buff spells. I could've more easily (in terms of effort) not done this at all.



And if "player has more assets upon loading up the Create New Game option = more better" without accounting for things like decision paralysis, we'd might as well make it so a new game just opens up with every single Vikings of Midgard sprite/palette already defined in all the same order, just with no scripts/textboxes/items/attacks/enemies/heroes defined. I just think a more focused set of sample graphics would be better.
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Post by Bird »

I had a bad dream. It was about the pre-set walkabout sprites! They will reduce creativity dramatically! New (naive) kids on the block will get their pure soul distracted by the presets and use their style! Hopefully, this is wrong and they keep on experimenting but something tells me that starting with a blank sheet of paper was how the kids in the early days of the OHR came up with some pretty strange ideas... and their own styles for walkabouts.

Using the smiley as a preset would be different. It's not a human creature and it's walking animation is achieved by moving it up and down one pixel. There is no hint of how the non-smiley creatures could look. The vikings graphics are bad as presets in the own game, because they are too good. This engine is for beginners who can't program, but have something in their minds to show in a game. The bar should be very low in my humble opinion.
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Post by Nathan Karr »

Another thing that'd work really well: Simply shaded two-tone stick figures. Just generic humanoid shapes in a variety of poses, each one using only a two color palette. Just barely enough face differentiation to tell the facing up version from the facing down version, pre-made weapon sprites that are just simple stick objects in a variety of lengths and positions; no swords or axes or any such. Small enemy stick figure, medium enemy stick figure, big enemy stick figure. Animation frames showcasing fairly dynamic poses.

Maybe I'll make that this afternoon.
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Post by Bird »

Great idea! The example graphics have to look so annoyingly simple that a three-year old would want to draw something more complex. Even more complex stickmen feel like an achievement!

So to speak, the current preset graphics are too good either. They may only have 4 colors, but look how much detail can be shown with them. Nintendo would have hired you in 1988 if you were capable of drawing them!
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Post by Nathan Karr »

Bird wrote:Great idea! The example graphics have to look so annoyingly simple that a three-year old would want to draw something more complex. Even more complex stickmen feel like an achievement!
https://www.slimesalad.com/forum/viewgame.php?p=138369
I updated it to include some stick figures as "Sample03". Just some gray stick figures, gray stick figures with skulls for heads, gray stick figures with sticks and shields, and a few simplistic monsters and the "example of default passability" maptiles as its tileset.

I restrained myself from making spears, axes, maces, swords, etc. as stick figure weapons, and the shields are just slightly larger versions of the shield icon in the default font. You just get sticks in various positions. Attack animations are mostly just straight sticks or diagonal sticks, though there's also an expanding circle and a bubble.

The stick figure knight walkabout serves as an example of characters not being symmetrical as they face different directions; you can see his stick and his shield if he's facing up or down, but only his weapon if he faces to the right and only his shield if he faces to the left.
Bird wrote:So to speak, the current preset graphics are too good either. They may only have 4 colors, but look how much detail can be shown with them. Nintendo would have hired you in 1988 if you were capable of drawing them!!
Yeah, they are pretty close to professional grade NES RPG sprites. I personally think the sprites from the full 8-bit graphics set are still generic enough that they'd serve this purpose pretty well, definitely better than the selection from the older set (literally just three very samey-looking walkabouts and no hero, weapon, attack, or enemy sprites of any sort? What does that even help with that using just a single walkabout wouldn't?).

I think the 8-bit sprites, the ones that actually use 3 colors, hit that sweet spot of being nicely drawn, an easy enough style to imitate or modify, and easy to replace. NES retro isn't the most popular way for games to look now, so replacing them wouldn't be a big deal for someone not in the mood to use them.
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Post by Bob the Hamster »

If you rename an RPG file and use it to replace ohrrpgce.new then it will be used as the template when you create a new game.

This can save work if you have a favorite palette, or a favorite set of graphics that you often have to re-import for new games
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Post by Nathan Karr »

Bob the Hamster wrote:If you rename an RPG file and use it to replace ohrrpgce.new then it will be used as the template when you create a new game.

This can save work if you have a favorite palette, or a favorite set of graphics that you often have to re-import for new games
I'll keep this in mind when I get ready to release TutOHRial's Hrodvitnir update. And just in general, really, because of how much I don't like the box edges and the new default master palette.
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