SDHawk wrote:Pepsi: If I get through the hotohr games in time I'll vote.
By the way, you still have time. I've extended the voting period by another week. We still need numbers over there at that dying Heart of the OHR (it's not really dying, but the turnout is the worst it's ever been, so I want more votes).
Just to reiterate the rubric for voting for those who don't know how best to score:
10 - Flawless; impossible to improve
9 - Nearly flawless; might have a spelling mistake or two, but otherwise excellent
8 - Flawed, but you loved it anyway
7 - Not necessarily your favorite, but still pretty great
6 - Competent in some areas, but the flaws keep it from being great
5 - Neither awesome nor terrible. Just kinda fun. Its pros balance out the cons.
4 - Not terrible, but it definitely needs some work in key areas. Just entertaining enough to keep it from being truly bad.
3 - Needs to go back to the drawing board. Competent as a game, but severely flawed, with major areas in need of revision or polishing.
2 - Terrible game; ugly, unpolished, probably untested, lame story, etc. Probably should be rewritten from scratch.
1 - Incompetent on every level; so bad that it should be scrapped entirely and erased from the public's consciousness. The very mention of its name would incinerate entire nations.
Okay, now since Charbile is dragging me into his review of Okedoke:
Charbile wrote:Okedoke
When things get this dumb it's going to feel stupid talking about it. Forewarning.
Inquiring minds want to know.
I'll try to keep this discussion civil, but I can't tell if you're sincerely asking legit questions or baiting a reaction. I'll do my best here to answer what you're asking and respond to your assertions.
Charbile wrote:See other reviews for design issues. Can add new items to that list, if asked. So, what's this game about? It's kind of amusing how it's fooled a couple reviewers into thinking it's a western because it's hard to get past the first map. Can't blame them.
I've been around the block in ohr town, and I understand to most that the amount of effort put into a work is worth points. I'm different here, because if the basic concept for a game is vapid and you make a chapter that's not exactly a fun experience, I don't care if you add fifty chapters to it and all the bells and whistles. It only makes the thing that much more bewildering.
Imagine James Doppler's pot game with 10 hours of gameplay added to it. More maps, more characters, more pop and commercial brand references, towns fleshed out with all the npcs and cutscenes you can cram into it. It would still be James Doppler's Epic Quest. Now take out any hint of black comedy or self-satire, have it played completely straight, and for good measure throw in farts, racial stereotypes, and real life politicians you think are big poopy heads, and stick to that level of humor and commentary. Now you have Okedoke.
I get your logic. I agree with you that adding fifty chapters of the same vapid stuff to a game is not going to redeem it. This is especially true if it has nothing redeeming in the first place.
That's how I feel about James Doppler. That's not how I feel about Okedoke. Yes, like what msw188 says, the jokes can be crass. At times. But some jokes are just goofy, ridiculous, or cartoonish (Cap'n Crunch as a bloodthirsty pirate anyone?). Some jokes miss the mark entirely (pretty much everything about pot and the derogatory terms related to the characters' race). Yes, there are a good number that miss, but there are still plenty that hit (there's a girl you can temporarily recruit to your team who speaks only in Goat--ridiculous!). That alone makes Okedoke better than James Doppler. It also helps that Okedoke has a style all its own, clever map design in later stages (not so much in earlier stages, but they're never awful), and a world that feels alive, even if it's one you (and I mean you personally) don't like.
Charbile wrote:I think the only person who could like this is someone who thinks comedy equals pop culture reference. Just so happens Pepsi Ranger has written several lengthy reviews. Please help me here:
Yes, I did write several lengthy reviews. That's what happens when your review doubles as a journal and (very loosely) part strategy guide. You need room to expand it. The chapter system made that easy. If you read just the reviewer feedback, then you missed the stuff that makes my feedback relevant. If you didn't read that part (because it's too long?), then why mention my name in this review? I don't see how it helps your argument. Or is it that you really are just asking questions for greater understanding?
Regarding pop culture jokes, as I write this response, I struggle to think of examples where I laughed at something other than a pop culture joke. I submit that most of the good humor in Okedoke is pop culture related. But why is that funny?
There's no simple way to answer that question. It goes back to my Cap'n Crunch reference. It's utterly absurd that Fnrrf would cast a cereal mascot to play a bloodthirsty pirate (who uses a spoon to dig out his victims' eyeballs). If you don't know Cap'n Crunch, it wouldn't be funny at all. But, if you grew up watching his commercials, it would be hard not to at least smile at this new take on a legend. Of course, some people may find the transformation of a beloved child's character into a murderous beast insulting, and I wouldn't expect any of them to find it funny. So, the best way I can answer that question is that a pop culture joke is funny depending on how it's used and how you receive it. It's kind of like someone testing to see whether you're ticklish. To address a later question you have, Mountain Dew as fuel isn't by itself funny, but the fact that the townspeople would rather stock a brand name soft drink in their isolated town than gas speaks volumes about who they are, about how ridiculous their situation is, and that to me makes them, and the situation that of all the places the Okedoke crew could break down, they end up in the one place that prioritizes Mountain Dew over gas, funny.
Charbile wrote:Pepsi prefaces his thoughts with how "Political Correctness" is an obstacle to humor, meaning everything he dislikes about James Doppler's game is now okay here. With a magic wave of one's hand you can dismiss everything you don't like with 'socially challenged' mental gymnastics--the game's theme? He ends with "Anyone looking for a biting social commentary might actually find one here--if they aren't busy superficially panning the game for its surface ills or its insensitive treatment of obviously exaggerated stereotypes." And here's the rub cause this could go on for WALLS AND WALLS:
With all due respect, your review of Okedoke is now a review of my review of Okedoke (and partly of James Doppler--a completely different game that you've already reviewed), which is fine for what it is, but terrible for this thread. I hope this doesn't count toward your overall review count. Please give FnrrfYgmSchnish a proper review of Okedoke, involving things like...
Charbile wrote:See other reviews for design issues. Can add new items to that list, if asked.
But to address your comment anyway, political correctness shields against sensitive subject matter, not disgusting subject matter. The real question might be why I find James Doppler disgusting (and offensive) and Okedoke a target of political correctness. Simply put, Okedoke is placed in the sniper scope because the labels that the villains give the heroes are offensive and ridiculous, and even though the offensive jokes are not funny in of themselves, they are delivered by villains (who shouldn't speak with roses in their mouths...unless their name is President Snow) in a ridiculous environment (where the Burger King has its own kingdom) which can be humorous if you're not the kind of person who gets bent out of shape over a label given to a video game character by its villains. True, the offensive humor in Okedoke is actually not that humorous, but I still stand by what I said about political correctness. My fallback will always be
There's Something About Mary and
My Cousin Vinny. Tell me which politically correct jokes are funny and which politically incorrect jokes are not.
It stops being funny when you do it to insult (which is based on ill-intent, which I don't think applies to Okedoke or its author). It also stops being funny when it was never funny in the first place (again, when it's designed to shock or insult).
I don't remember exactly what funny thing political correctness tries to shoot down in Okedoke (if there was one), but as a whole, I feel political correctness harms Okedoke's reputation because it's the only thing players focus on amid the wide diversity of topics it addresses, and they all think it's a crap game for going there. Graphics, gameplay, puzzles, style, and so on mean nothing because the villains calls the heroes a nasty name. That's political correctness killing Okedoke. I get that it presses sensitive buttons, and maybe it should, but so does the Oscar-winning movie
American Beauty. Stop tanking a game based on one element you don't agree with. Even if that one thing ruins your whole experience, it doesn't change the way the game is drawn or laid out. Tank it because you hate everything about it. Kind of like how I feel about James Doppler.
I have a feeling I'm missing an important point here, but it's late and I still have a paper to review before bed, so I have to move on.
Now, to continue on the James Doppler comparison. I believe you honestly want to know why I see both games differently, even if you don't. I'll first say that msw188 hits the nail of a lot of my reasoning on the head. Example:
msw188 wrote:Making the emo kid enemy 'sacrifice' itself. Making the battle song literally "Beat it".
James Doppler never gets this clever. Who bases an entire country on the Burger King name? Yeah, it's pop culture. But more importantly, it's clever use of pop culture. Okedoke actually changes direction and tone (not a positive for most games, but surprisingly refreshing for Okedoke) and creates a traditional fantasy RPG out of the Burger Kingdom. And he's not that crass about it. He does make a commentary about teenage girls and their phones, but it's just another thing you can either snipe at if you're sensitive to jokes about teenage girls and cellphones, or just enjoy because you're playing in a world that could never exist in real life so just run with it.
I'd argue that it also comes down to personal taste. I hate raunchy humor. Okedoke has its bathroom jokes, which get old quickly, I'll admit, but they're never outright disgusting. James Doppler gets disgusting. I don't laugh at disgusting. Okedoke has references to pot but doesn't make it the center of its comedy--I'm not sure if they even are jokes or just character traits to make NPCs different. James Doppler tries to get its biggest laugh out of a wizard zoning out on mushrooms. Really? I'm supposed to laugh at that? Okedoke blends all the jokes, pop culture references, etc. into crafting a world with personality. James Doppler can, as you suggest, be traded with regular characters with regular problems and with regular RPG quest needs and the world wouldn't know the difference. About racism: James Doppler doesn't go there (not that I remember anyway), but it does make some awful references to women, which is no better. I'm not gonna argue which is the worst of the two because it comes down to your outlook and your security in who you are. I don't think either is appropriate, but I find less offense in things that aren't meant to injure or disrespect. I think Okedoke was trying to make a ridiculous game, not an offensive one. Why? Just look at the villains. Some of the greatest caricatures of villainy are those who look like idiots when they cross the line. That basically describe's Okedoke's villains in a nutshell. Watch
Blazing Saddles (a comedy classic) if you really want to see this in action. James Doppler has no villains. His characters (read: heroes) are just foul-mouthed douchebags that make me want to shower after listening to them. To make one a Gandalfian wizard is just another way to miss the target on comedy.
I was gonna save this for my own review of James Doppler, but I don't feel like my answer to your challenge is complete without this last point:
In
Tropic Thunder, Robert Downey, Jr. explains why Tom Hanks wins an Oscar for
Forrest Gump, but Ben Stiller (as Tugg Speedman) doesn't even get nominated for
Simple Jack. Because his example is also a sensitive topic, I'm gonna refrain from quoting what he says, but the general idea is that you have to pull back a little and allow in some charm to your character if you want to make it memorable in a good way. Okedoke has charm, even amid the crap. James Doppler doesn't even try. To borrow loosely from
Tropic Thunder, James Doppler goes full slimehead.
That's why I find Okedoke fun and James Doppler a stain on artistic expression and humanity.
Now, if James Doppler isn't supposed to be funny and we've all completely misrepresented the drama that it strives to be, then I apologize for my comments about it. But it's still a crappy game, and I still hate it.
Charbile wrote:What is the social commentary?
What is the humor?
Play the game again, from start to finish. Then put on your college thinking cap. Seriously, you're asking too large a question. Compare the game to what you see around you in real life to understand the social commentary. Here's a hint: What things do we blow so far out of proportion to the point that it makes us look petty? How do we spend our time? What do we spend our money on? How do we view our politics? Keep going down this train of thought and then answer your own questions if you want to know the answer to this.
Regarding the humor: I can't teach funny. Sorry. You either find something funny or you don't. (And I expect you to know humor, because you're one of the funniest people on here when you make games. I mean that as a compliment.
Sleepover was amazing and had plenty of funny moments. Same for that weird pony game you made. Hilarious.)
Actually, no, I'll give you this one. Your sense of humor may be higher brow than what either of these games offer. I laugh at anything funny that isn't disgusting or insulting to my IQ--which Okedoke never does, but James Doppler does incessantly. But even if that's the case, I can't explain what's funny about low-brow humor. A lot of it isn't, honestly. I just think Okedoke has moments where it rises above the pot(ty) humor whereas James Doppler swims in the toilet.
Charbile wrote:And I mean specifically. Honest questions. Really curious. Cause the answers to both seem like 'superficial or shallow' and 'oh look, a reference!' What's the purpose of senor death? McBoobs as a playable? What's the commentary of needing MOUNTAIN DEW as fuel for a van? Border patrol as power rangers? The Burger King and The Swarm thing? Cereal gangs? All the lame racial 'humor'?
Now you're just assuming that everything is supposed to be funny. Like I said further up the post, some of it is just about building a personality for El Garbanzo's world. The
Naked Gun movies were pants-peeing hilarious, but there's nothing funny about casting an older detective as your lead, at least not on its own. The fact that he's a straight-shooter is what allows everything else to be funny around him. Give it enough time to sink in and soon you realize he's funny
because he's the straight-shooter.
(I know that's an old reference, but if you haven't seen at least the first movie, stop reading this crap and go watch it. One of the funniest movies in a generation.)
Charbile wrote:Pepsi, I read your entire review (skipped the non review parts) and you mention redeeming commentary and qualities but never ever spell out what exactly that is. By all means, anyone. The mic's yours.
I hope my response sheds some light. If not, then ask more specific questions. I can't answer broad questions with anything particularly helpful.
I guess that's it. Hopefully the movie references didn't go too off the rails. I'm really trying to answer this post as quickly as I can, so some of my logic may not line up entirely the way I hope, and some of my points may be posted in the wrong place. I may have to post some revisions once I look at this again with fresh eyes. But for now, I hope this answers your questions.