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So recently I've been toying around with different ideas on how to better design my towns and cities as-well-as the buildings that occupy them. I've done a lot of research on both games and real life towns/cities and buildings and it has produced some good results.
...I discovered one thing though: I was still awful at laying out the towns and making things look less JRPG-y and more believable. I have toyed around with various ways of doing so and I have found a potential ace.
Now, the reason for the post (the first thread I've started in years) is that I want to know if the solution I've found is more work than it is worth.
I find designing and laying out locations very difficult in 2D. I envy those of you who can do that on the fly, but with me I always struggle to make it happen on paper.
I have never struggled with doing things in 3D though, and I came up with the plan to use Google Sketch-Up to create everything in 3D. After that I could simply fly around looking down at a 45 degree tilt and start tiling in the OHR from there.
This could take a loooong time. I know it's weird to ask but: I made this thread to ask for dis-encouragement. I cannot find any good source material for creating unique town layouts, and I can't find any good reference points on Google Maps. So if anyone could direct me towards either:
1) Some kind of tutorial or guide on town structure
or
2) Any areas on Google Maps that I could look at for inspiration.
I'd be extremely grateful.
Also, if I can suss this issue, I'll try and get an article or tutorial done on the subject written up. I've figured out a lot of unique ways of making architecture look nice now, I just suck at arranging it in an appealing way, so on top of that I'll do a few tutorials on drawing roofs, awnings, etc. Heck, I'll throw in a water tutorial as-well if this get my mojo going again!
tl;dr - I've came up with an OTT solution to a trivial issue. If anyone can guide me to a better solution then I'll move heaven and earth to help others in the same regard.
Is this backwards? AKA The convoluted town layout solution
Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:41 pm 
Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:48 pm
I'll say again that in some respects, a push for "realism" in games can be to the detriment of those games. The fun of any art is that some elements are reduced and others are emphasized. If someone wanted the experience of walking around a realistic town, why wouldn't they just go walk around a town? Who plays an RPG to walk around the towns anyway? In my opinion, a "good" RPG town is one that simulates the town experience in an aesthetically pleasing way, but, mechanically speaking, makes things like inns and shops as conveniently and efficiently accessible as possible. Realistically, if I wanted to buy a leather coat, a new hat, some herbal medicines, and a sword in my town, it'd take me about 4-5 hours of driving around, browsing, selecting, purchasing, etc. If I want to do this in an RPG, it should take me like 2 minutes or so, so I can get back to like, USING that coat, hat, herbs, and sword. Towns in the real world are often illogical and inefficient because they develop organically over decades or centuries; towns in an RPG should be logical and efficient because they've been designed to be so by the player. If "uniqueness" and "realism" come at the cost of making the game less fun, I would say it's the wrong choice for any game designer.
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Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:31 am
KF Harlock wrote:
In my opinion, a "good" RPG town is one that simulates the town experience in an aesthetically pleasing way, but, mechanically speaking, makes things like inns and shops as conveniently and efficiently accessible as possible.
This is what I'm going for, but I don't quite want to go for it at the same time.
I like functional towns in games and I know that a bit too much realism leans towards boredom, take Fable II for example (and III to a lesser extent). While it is not necessary to do so, if one wanted fish and pies and veg they'd be running around to 3 or 4 different stores. This is silly.
I don't like the idea of a town turning into a themed supermarket either. I've played on too many RPGs to count in which the towns have less houses than shops.
That aside, what those games do generally works for them and I'm not criticising games that do this, I'm here to get evidence against my own daft idea at making appealing looking towns.
KF Harlock wrote:
Who plays an RPG to walk around the towns anyway?
*raises hand sheepishly* It was the reason I stuck to FFXII, the towns felt alive... I could spend hours taking it all in even now.
KF Harlock wrote:
I'll say again that in some respects, a push for "realism" in games can be to the detriment of those games. The fun of any art is that some elements are reduced and others are emphasized.
I see your point there. It is possible to make something too realistic in a game, especially when the objective is escapism. I guess I'm a bit odd when it comes to the extremes, I've always done rather plain, dull towns and now I went a bit too far in the wrong direction :S.
Also, the bit I've bolded there... that is genius and I could frame that for reference. (Mainly because its a fantastic quote, and secondly due to it being 3 hours before I need to get up and I haven't slept in over 24 hours xD).
Thank you very much for giving me some direction Harlock, you've helped me get some good ideas together. I hope this didn't come off as snarky or sarcastic, because I'm trying to be sincere (thought I'd put this as a disclaimer as I'm aware that emotion doesn't normally carry well over the internet ^^;).
Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:05 am
I'm a sucker for fun town development, and like you, I want a town that's memorable, yet functional.
I've made it a practice in my games to divide towns by sectors. In one map you may have all the residential areas. In another you might have the shops (downtown area). Another might mix the two. Another still might function as an entertainment district. The outskirts might produce agriculture or dirty industry (coal mines, power plants, etc.). I find this is an easier way to keep the player from getting too lost, and still allow him an opportunity to go right for what he wants when he wants it. Does he want to raid homes for loose treasure? He should go to the residential district. Does he want to buy a sword or some food? Go to the shopping district. Do you want him to learn more about the town's history? Send him to the governmental sector. It takes a little more work to pull this off, but it'll make your town a lot richer than average and still fun to explore. This is especially so if you add character-driven sectors like a historical or cultural district.
As far as layout goes, I've learned in my own game design that large maps can slow down the gaming experience. I think you should divide the towns into multiple maps, but keep each sector reasonably small so the player can always know where he's walking.
I think you'll find this is much easier than trying to cram everything into a single map. It also keeps the entire town from looking like copies of other towns (or a copy of itself from one side of the map to the other).
Place Obligatory Signature Here
I've made it a practice in my games to divide towns by sectors. In one map you may have all the residential areas. In another you might have the shops (downtown area). Another might mix the two. Another still might function as an entertainment district. The outskirts might produce agriculture or dirty industry (coal mines, power plants, etc.). I find this is an easier way to keep the player from getting too lost, and still allow him an opportunity to go right for what he wants when he wants it. Does he want to raid homes for loose treasure? He should go to the residential district. Does he want to buy a sword or some food? Go to the shopping district. Do you want him to learn more about the town's history? Send him to the governmental sector. It takes a little more work to pull this off, but it'll make your town a lot richer than average and still fun to explore. This is especially so if you add character-driven sectors like a historical or cultural district.
As far as layout goes, I've learned in my own game design that large maps can slow down the gaming experience. I think you should divide the towns into multiple maps, but keep each sector reasonably small so the player can always know where he's walking.
I think you'll find this is much easier than trying to cram everything into a single map. It also keeps the entire town from looking like copies of other towns (or a copy of itself from one side of the map to the other).
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Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:17 am
The District idea is defiantly the best so far, as it also adds a sense of purpose to the hero, unless he's the Silent Protagonist of course. The party will be shown only going to parts of town that are convenient or important, instead of wandering around the suburbs like a lost omnipotent child.
Another option is to have a set of "doors" to the overworld or next district in a place that shows said town goes on- houses, roads, ect.- but that the player cannot access it. Yes, these invisible walls are frowned on, but only for the barrier itself. If there's literally nothing to do, the player tends to not go there anyway.
One thing to remember as far as realism goes is that perception is reality. If a realistic setting is perceived as boring and over complicated, the reality is that it is. Yes, if you're town includes every building, PO box and pothole in the road that a real town would have, you may be praised for innovation and attention to detail, but it will all be work done on something nobody will really do anything with. And us no-budget hobbyists don't have that luxury.
You don't need to show the whole town to let the player know there's more to it than a shopping mall. And you don't need to show everyone in it for the player to know there's more than who he meets. Are we to assume all 500,000 citizens of Skyrim, and their property, were duly represented?
—- So anyway, how are you?
Another option is to have a set of "doors" to the overworld or next district in a place that shows said town goes on- houses, roads, ect.- but that the player cannot access it. Yes, these invisible walls are frowned on, but only for the barrier itself. If there's literally nothing to do, the player tends to not go there anyway.
One thing to remember as far as realism goes is that perception is reality. If a realistic setting is perceived as boring and over complicated, the reality is that it is. Yes, if you're town includes every building, PO box and pothole in the road that a real town would have, you may be praised for innovation and attention to detail, but it will all be work done on something nobody will really do anything with. And us no-budget hobbyists don't have that luxury.
You don't need to show the whole town to let the player know there's more to it than a shopping mall. And you don't need to show everyone in it for the player to know there's more than who he meets. Are we to assume all 500,000 citizens of Skyrim, and their property, were duly represented?
—- So anyway, how are you?
Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:45 pm
I think that Pepsi's idea is very good. Splitting the cities and towns up into different segments will help convey scope a bit better, plus that'll make multiple world map tile sprawls fun to draw in.
I'm a big fan of side content, and as such I think a town is a great place to get immersed in the cultures and customs of different places. Additionally it can make for a great questing hub.
I'm planning on doing a few multi map cities for the game due to the very nature of the narrative structure, with many main groups of people going through a few of the same places. Bigness is key when lots of people are headed to places, in addition it makes more sense for characters not bumping into each other.
As for layout itself, what kinds of street map layouts look good? I've been toying with figures of 8 lately (as a lot of towns in both games and real life seem to follow an 8 shape), as-well-as spider-like cities which have a focal point at the centre and different branches to them.
Stewie wrote:
Yes, if you're town includes every building, PO box and pothole in the road that a real town would have, you may be praised for innovation and attention to detail, but it will all be work done on something nobody will really do anything with.
Why does everyone think I'm trying to go that far :S Did I phrase the original post in a weird way? *goes back to read what I said*
I can in fact see how it could look that way (that is the last time I pull an all nighter then ask a question an hour after I should have already been asleep ^^;). Although, I think I have gained a lot from this! I've already got a few nice ideas for towns, and I've thought of a good way at getting some pseudo-realism in there without going too OTT.
Also, I'm still gonna make those tutorials! I just need to try out some level designs that I've came up with and I'll be all set... ish...
In the meantime :-
What games have you played that you thought had fantastic towns/quest hubs?
and
What made you like those towns more than others in the same game? What made it stand out?
Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:17 pm
In real life, the grid system works best, but in games, you'll probably want to focus on a central hub and spider-web your way out. Of course, how you approach this would depend on whether you're starting in that town or walking into that town. The player's first impression of the town matters when you're messing with the dramatic element. For example, in my game, the player first enters the big city through the slum district. It's a dark and gritty introduction, but it makes getting to the east side where all the pristine businesses and entertainment centers are held all the more exciting. You've gone through this ugly, violent place already, so it's a nice change to see something attractive and relatively peaceful. Likewise, if you're starting in the center of town, it's a good idea to open with the soft and pleasant and let the player discover as he goes the darker sides of town.
Of the professional games you've played, I've generally appreciated the sprawling opening city in Final Fantasy 7 for its sheer depth of scenery and culture (and its district-making that I described earlier). The towns to follow in that game paled in comparison because they were simply too small and mostly singular in theme. I liked the beach town a lot, but that was about it. I also liked the Mediterranean town in Illusion of Gaia for its many nooks and crannies (I like towns I can explore), and the flea market in Secret of Evermore because it was dedicated to a singular purpose and kept all other town matters in other locations.
Of the OHR games I could choose, I really gotta stay true to my own games, specifically The Adventures of Powerstick Man: Extended Edition. I designed the towns in that game with the previously mentioned towns as influences. I've worked hard to keep them diverse, interesting, and relevant -- the game's popularity stems from the town construction (and NPC interaction) if I remember correctly -- and they stand out because most every other town I explore in the OHR doesn't really try to diversify or challenge my sense of exploration, and many don't even bother to immerse me in the culture.
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Quote:
What games have you played that you thought had fantastic towns/quest hubs?
and
What made you like those towns more than others in the same game? What made it stand out?
and
What made you like those towns more than others in the same game? What made it stand out?
Of the professional games you've played, I've generally appreciated the sprawling opening city in Final Fantasy 7 for its sheer depth of scenery and culture (and its district-making that I described earlier). The towns to follow in that game paled in comparison because they were simply too small and mostly singular in theme. I liked the beach town a lot, but that was about it. I also liked the Mediterranean town in Illusion of Gaia for its many nooks and crannies (I like towns I can explore), and the flea market in Secret of Evermore because it was dedicated to a singular purpose and kept all other town matters in other locations.
Of the OHR games I could choose, I really gotta stay true to my own games, specifically The Adventures of Powerstick Man: Extended Edition. I designed the towns in that game with the previously mentioned towns as influences. I've worked hard to keep them diverse, interesting, and relevant -- the game's popularity stems from the town construction (and NPC interaction) if I remember correctly -- and they stand out because most every other town I explore in the OHR doesn't really try to diversify or challenge my sense of exploration, and many don't even bother to immerse me in the culture.
Place Obligatory Signature Here
Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:33 pm
Tazmily Village (google it for pictures, there's plenty of them) functions pretty well as a central hub village for Mother 3, although admittedly, there's very little to do in the village itself in the later capters (which is somewhat lampshaded by the fact that all the townsfolk are moving out.) While it could easily serve as a central sanctuary (it has an inn and a bazaar), it does not need to since pint-sized healing centers with save points and item vendors (hot springs, save frogs, and mole cricket entrepreneurs) are literally everywhere within convenience of your journey. It's far from realistic, and it's probably way off of what you're thinking of for a town design, but it works very well in the context and atmosphere of Mother 3. The fact that the world is so small and interconnected helps identify Tazmily as a "hub", in that you'll pass through it a lot on your journey, even if nothing significant happens there. The townsfolk, however, change their dialogue very frequently by RPG standards, making Tazmily a fun place to get to know everyone and see what new things they have to say.
EDIT: Mother 4 (the fan-game) is in development, and they're putting a lot of emphasis on making town centers interesting places that will encourage the player to stop, explore, and have a new adventure in, as opposed to relegating towns to simple road stops. Maybe you could contact the developers, and they might share some tips on their town planning. No guarantees, they're busy people, but who knows?
On a totally different side of the "realism" spectrum is Whiterun from Skyrim. It's conveniently located in the dead center of Skyrim, will almost certainly be a player's first city, and has just about every commodity one could ask for somewhere within its walls. It's a great place for hoarding resources and leveling up all kinds of different skills, and the city layout is easy enough to get accustomed to. While the number of unique NPCs here is impressive for video game standards, and certainly they behave more realistically than some of their NPC predecessors, it's still very far from the scale and population of a real city. There's just enough middle ground between practical conservatism and true-to-life artistic detailing to satisfy just about anyone.
EDIT: Mother 4 (the fan-game) is in development, and they're putting a lot of emphasis on making town centers interesting places that will encourage the player to stop, explore, and have a new adventure in, as opposed to relegating towns to simple road stops. Maybe you could contact the developers, and they might share some tips on their town planning. No guarantees, they're busy people, but who knows?
On a totally different side of the "realism" spectrum is Whiterun from Skyrim. It's conveniently located in the dead center of Skyrim, will almost certainly be a player's first city, and has just about every commodity one could ask for somewhere within its walls. It's a great place for hoarding resources and leveling up all kinds of different skills, and the city layout is easy enough to get accustomed to. While the number of unique NPCs here is impressive for video game standards, and certainly they behave more realistically than some of their NPC predecessors, it's still very far from the scale and population of a real city. There's just enough middle ground between practical conservatism and true-to-life artistic detailing to satisfy just about anyone.
Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:33 pm
This thread makes me want to fix the awful mess that is Ixnekolan village in Wandering Hamster
Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:35 pm
Bob the Hamster wrote:
This thread makes me want to fix the awful mess that is Ixnekolan village in Wandering Hamster
If that is that cat town, do it. That place was a bit of an eye-sore imo.
Though the music was catchy.
dOn'T MiNd mE! i'M jUsT CoNtAgIoUs!!!
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:49 pm
I thought cat cultures were just naturally messy and haphazard, which is part of what separates them from the noble, tidy, and organized hamster-folk.