My possibly unpopular call for discussion

Okay, here goes nothing. Let me start this off by admitting right away that I've NEVER PLAYED WANDERING HAMSTER, and I only just played Vikings of Midgard for the first time. Anyone who read my review in the last Hamsterspeak knows my basic opinions about VoM as a game, but that's not really what this is about.

I believe that Wandering Hamster should be re-instated as the flagship game for new users of the OHR.



Indeed, this makes it a good thing that the decision doesn't rest with me, and in fact rests with James alone. But I still decided to make this thread because I think the issue warrants discussion, and most of you will be better informed than I am. And I want to start the discussion by talking about the game I DO know.

3 Reasons Why MSW188 Does Not Believe That Vikings Of Midgard Should Be The Flagship Game For The OHR, Going From Least To Most Important:

1. Community References
This isn't a big deal, but for people who download the OHR and have never visited any of the forums, and have never played Wandering Hamster or any other OHR game, some of these will cause some confusion. Most of them would honestly be fine (Triangle Man makes a fine enemy without ever having heard of Mr. Triangle), but the fact that they are all over the game means that a newcomer would find himself feeling in the dark about some of the things in this game at least a few times. I'd be VERY surprised if Wandering Hamster has close to this amount of community referencing, if any at all.

2. Typos
Even the Readme itself has a typo or two. This, in my opinion, keeps the game from feeling professional, or even finished. And like the community references, these typos are spread out throughout the entire game. I considered putting this as number 1, but it's the most easily fixable of my 3 reasons, and there's a chance Fenrir might do it. And again, I'd be VERY surprised if James' WH contains nearly as many such mistakes.

3. Bugs
They exist in most games to be fair, even commercial ones. But the bugs in Vikings are bad. There are several that are just nuisances, but still feel unprofessional. Some lead to non-sensical scenarios that would be particularly confusing for a newcomer. But there are a few that are actually gamebreaking and practically force the player to quit (or run from the battle). Some of these are engine bugs rather than problems with Vikings itself, but this is not something we want to show to our newcomers. What's worse is that some of these bugs are not even that hard to uncover in the course of normally playing the game (unlike most bugs in commercial games). Once again, I will be astounded if there are similar problems with Wandering Hamster.

This isn't meant as an attack on VoM as a game, but rather as an introduction. I say this now because after playing some of these Heart of the OHR games, I really feel like this engine is capable of producing some first rate 2D RPGs, and that this community stands a chance of possibly growing to include pure players, as opposed to authors. But to do so, I think we need an introductory game that does not have need to refer to itself as a "bug-ridden mess".

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I am Srime

Not sure what more to add, but I do agree with this pretty much wholeheartedly. I suspect there are others who have been afraid to say anything. And yeah, I don't mean it in an offensive sense toward anyone. Fenrir has clearly poured his heart in to Vikings. The project has evolved way past its original intent, and Wandering Hamster as a result STILL comes off as the better 'template' for the engine to me. A new OHR user will not produce a game like Vikings. Odd as I guess this sounds, it just isn't generic enough anymore.

I am also very much against the game's graphics being used as sprite sheets even though it happens so rarely, but that is entirely a different ballpark and is perfectly understandable.

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My website, the home of Motrya:
http://www.jshgaming.com

I don't agree with #1. I think that the community references in Vikings is the #1 reason it SHOULD be the flagship game. The ohr is 99% about the community, and new comers getting a taste all of the community's different games by playing the flagship game seems like it works.

In fact I'd say that's the only reason it should be the flagship game at all. I mean it's not the highest rated game, not the game with the best graphics, not the game with the most compelling story, not really anything besides the flagship game. I'd understand if it was complete, because so few OHR games are actually complete, but it's not.

That said, I really have no problem with Vikings remaining the flagship game, BUT, I think it would be good to give other games a chance.
I think we're all ok with wandering hamster being the flagship game because James made it, and he's the maker of the ohr so it's neutral. But Vikings being the flagship game is like saying Fenrir is the best OHR user. I'll admit, when I first started posting here on a regular basis I assumed everyone agreed that fenrir was the best, and that's why his game was flagship game.

Anyways, I propose that either Wandering hamster becomes the new flagship game OR the winner of the next HotOHR contest does.

I love VoM, but...there are some oddities you will spot in Custom for this.

1. Not all the monsters are used. Examples: the 'Activated' version of Deactivated, which is not used, and Dr.Mu, who is also not used.

2. There are extra hero spots. Hati has hero graphics. TMan and Kyle do to. There is also an unfinished, un-added character, Xephes, who I edited into my game. She had named spellists, a character bio thingy, and even scythes made for her. XD

3. Unused screens. Three of them. There was seemingly a fight in the crystal abyss between the heroes, Lord Broaste, and five people. Lord Broaste, a monsterous tree mutant thing, Josef, a guy with a wicked bang and gun, Neke, who has the upper half of a beautiful redheaded woman, and the bottom half of a mechanical snake, slither, an electronic beast, Gahn, mentioned in game as the lord of conquest, and Seraph, also mentioned in game as a heretic banished from a church due to witchcraft.

4. The OHR house in Niffleheim. Fully completed map that is not available unless you edit (Like I did!)

Its amusing what you find when you snoop
I would love to see a sequel. I think Midgard has a lot of potential. I would love to know the story behind Josef, Neke, Lord Broaste in Midgard, and why the heck Gahn and Seraph are there. And why Lord B is a giant mutant tree!

Wandering Hamster is not a suitable base for all people to use. it is GPL licensed (except for the scripts, which are BSD licensed) so you can't use Wandering Hamster as a base for any game that will not also be GPL licensed.

I don't think the community references are a problem.

Bugs and typos are a problem, but they can all be fixed. I suspect that Fenrir doesn't have a lot of time to work on Vikings right now, but I am sure he would appreciate any bug reports.

The reason I want to have a flagship game at all, is that when a curious user installs the OHRRPGCE for the first time, I want them to have something to play-- not just the confusing maze of menus in custom.

It would be great to give more prominent promotion to other good games, and I am open to suggestions on how best to do that, with special focus on helping make cool games easier to find for newcomers from outside of the OHR community.

In case you haven't noticed, I've not really been "active" for the last several months. Real life, etc. *cough*

If James ever completes Wandering Hamster, I'll gladly back Vikings being de-listed as the "flagship" OHR title. Heck, if he can actually get to the point where all you have to do is run around performing side-quests to flesh out the party's skills/weapons/levels, I'd be ready to step down.

Game-breaking bugs or not, it's still one of the more "complete" OHR games out there. Guess I went a bit overboard with updating it though. Thankfully, I don't have MUCH to do to finish it up.

And without spoiling too much about the REAL villain of the game...
He doesn't want power, control, or anything like that. He's not interested in conquest - indeed he practically controls every nuance of the world itself. He doesn't care if it thrives or withers - He just wants to be free. Free of the pain of his own existence, free of responsibility for his actions, free of causality - to do whatever he wants without cause, just effects. Free from the engine whose games from which he was birthed. And to do THAT, he's going to need every hero, villain, and minor character from the entire OHR "multiverse" to set him free. And once he's out...

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To friends long gone, and those I've yet to meet - thank you.

As long as Heart of the OHR remains a strongly supported contest, I would be in favor of voting the gold, silver, and bronze medalists into the canon of flagship games. I suppose that's already the case since Vikings was the silver medalist. Also, if Nintendo can have Mario, Link, Samus, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Fox McCloud, Captain Falcon, etc., etc., then I don't see any reason why we can't laud the icons of the OHR to new users more. It doesn't all have to be about the hamster.

Outside of that, my argument on the matter is that Vikings represents an achievable standard, not so much a product beyond a beginner's reach. Perhaps if we focused less on a single game and instead presented "level of ability" games (i.e. the newbie game, the intermediate game, and the striving for excellence game), then we could do a better job showing new users not only what the engine can do, but also show how far he or she can progress if he keeps at it.

Having said that, I think we need a staple for alternative platforms, as well. I would vote for Slimes or Bell of Chaos (DON'T EAT SOAP! is too familiar to work as a flagship for platformers since the flagships should present somewhat original ideas). There's no reason why Vikings should be taken off the list of flagships, nor is there a reason to have only one fleet to show off.

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Place Obligatory Signature Here

Okay, there are lots of interesting responses in here, and more to come maybe. Here are some of my thoughts on a couple:


This may be true now, but I think it is somewhat counterproductive to the community growing to include players as well as authors. Furthermore, there are plenty of references to PEOPLE rather than games, and these are what I think most newcomers would find most confusing (such as my review's example with ChaosNyte, who incidentally hasn't been a part of the community since the Castle Paradox Fiasco). Plus, it's kind of backwards to have the references before the games themselves. Imagine if we wanted Barnabus' Tribute to be the "flagship" of the Heart of the OHR. Would that really make sense to people who hadn't played the entries first?


I'll admit right away that this didn't occur to me at all. I will argue that it is not actually a big deal. Pure 'players' downloading the OHR won't care, while people looking to make their own game can easily understand that the flagship game is so that they have something to PLAY in addition to mucking about with menus (like you said). If they want a 'base' for their own game, they can be directed to Vikings, or any number of other games that we can arrange to make available. (I'm curious - how many people actually WANT something like this? When I found the OHR, I was looking to make games, but had no expectation to find a pre-made game to 'base' mine off of in any sense, even just for learning how to draw). I guess what I'm saying here is that this is backwards - the flagship game should be geared toward newcomers' playing experiences, and a basis for making one's own game should be available upon request.


I don't know how I feel about this. I think it's easier to just have one flagship game and advertise with that. It also helps if that game coincides with the themes that the newcomer sees when they visit the wiki - namely, Bob the Hamster as the single icon, and his RPG since that is what the engine is for. Then there could be a page of the wiki where Bob recommends some other "classic" OHR games, but these would clearly be the fleet BEHIND the Wandering Hamster flagship.

Those last two I'm not 100% certain about.

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I am Srime

I agree on this in principle, but then again it runs the risk of one person (or a small handful) essentially telling people what games they should play first because they're the most enjoyable/graphically pretty/or because they're friends with the other games' authors. The fact is, whoever is making the "introductory OHR game" is going to automatically have a larger voice in the community because more people will have played their game first - and first impressions are probably the most important. Nearly everyone here knows Bob the Hamster. Most of us "grew up" with Wandering Hamster, so naturally we identify with Bob a bit more - he's the OHR's mascot anyhow. It wasn't very long ago that James himself rarely made appearances - the few times he'd make a forum post or make an update to the engine (or Wandering Hamster) it would seem that every word he'd type would be as though it were handed down from on high. Think about this for a bit. If someone you looked up to said "I like X", wouldn't you have a biased opinion of that by association? Granted, Vikings does this as well, but it makes a LOT of shout-outs to such a wide variety of games (more than any of RMZ's).

I'm tempted to make an Airship2600 joke here, but if that were the flagship game, nobody would want to play any of the other OHR games.

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To friends long gone, and those I've yet to meet - thank you.

Then it doesn't have to phrased in that manner. Imagine:

Hi, I'm Bob the Hamster! If you enjoyed my game (or even if you didn't), there are lots and lots of other games that have been made using the OHRRPGCE that you should try. Here are just a few:

blah blah - Our good community at Slime Salad voted this game as the best RPG on the system (besides mine, of course!). description description

dum diddy dum - Here's another one that the Slime Salad community voted on, this one being the best non-RPG on the system. Ah the beauty of democracy! description description description

Also, every two years we hold a contest for new RPGs, or updates to existing ones. Here are the winners of the most recent such contest. Be warned though, some of these might still be works in progress!

1st place
2nd place
3rd place

But don't let me tell you what to play! Go on over to (various links) and find some games that interest you! Or start making your own!

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I am Srime

For pete's sake just include both.

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<TheGiz> oh hai doggy, oh no that's the straw that broke tjhe came baclsb

How many text boxes are in Vikings? I'd be willing to do a quick edit through (if it didn't offend anybody and I wouldn't break anything) and fix the majority of them if at all possible.

And I agree: include both. Bob has a history and is both simple enough to take apart and inspiring in that way, and Vikings is a good "shoot for this goal" I think for a newcomer.

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Luigi is almost as sexy as me!

There are exactly 2247 textboxes. Yeahhh...I don't think your gonna edit all them...

Anyways, I like the sound of an idea said earlier. (Which I cannot seem to find quote...)

Having a basic, intermediate, and then Vikings Of Midgard (or another difficult game) be flagship. Basic being something achiveable with little work, intermediate being something achievable with some work, and Vikings of Midgard (or some other game) that is achievable with a lot of work. These games would be based upon story, graphics, and gameplay.

Although it might make the OHRRPGCE file bigger to download, which is a downside, as we all want more space on our computers to fit stuff.

This really isn't that much if you're used to editing. Motrya only has ~1000 in the current file and I've edited it all the way twice.

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My website, the home of Motrya:
http://www.jshgaming.com

Besides file size (which can be curbed through having the option to not include the games and allowing the games to be downloaded separately), I see nothing but advantages in including both.

One is a game that has a unique concept and would encourage people to come up with their own graphics/imaginative content, and the other makes for a great tech demo.

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<TheGiz> oh hai doggy, oh no that's the straw that broke tjhe came baclsb