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Liquid Metal King Slime
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Crazy things you can do with Delay 
 PostTue Jul 21, 2009 6:47 pm
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Okay, I have really been enjoying the "Delay" metamagic.

However, I have found enough ways to exploit it that it is starting to seem a little unfair, so I thought it would be good to start a discussion on how to fix it.

=The Obvious=

Delay doesn't seem that great on the surface. It makes attacks cost a tiny bit more, and makes you wait for a whole turn before you get the effect. While this gives you a small element of surprise, and the psychological benefit of being able to land two strong hits simultaneously, it doesn't seem worth it...

=Cost Checking=
Costs for delayed attacks are checked at delay time, but MP is actually subtracted on the next turn. This means that Delay makes it possible to take your MP into negative values. That means that you have to recharge on the next round, but it can be exploited to do things like land two Final Sludgements when you should only be able to afford one, and with a hit like that who cares if you have to recharge?

James's Suggested Remedy I think your MP should still be allowed to go negative in this situation, but maybe for every point of negative MP your HP should be damaged also (according to the MP/HP conversion rates) This also suggests to me a new metamagic. What if there was a metamagic specifically designed to allow you spend MP you don't have , and converting it to self-damage. Too dangerously game-breaking? Let a high-level SlimeBot Omega test it out for us!

=Double Assassination=
I think most everyone knows right now that using delay you can land a backstab crit and a backpoke crit in the same turn, thus allowing you to do two assassinates in a row.

James's Suggested Remedy I don't think this needs to be fixed at all. It is a cool combo, and it's large damage potential is mitigated by the fact that opponents can see it coming a mile a way. (very un-stealthy for an assassinate move, but oh-well)

=Delay Devil's Contract=
As demonstrated in this battle, you can use Delay to bind your soul to TWO contracts simultaneously. This gives you a whopping six turns of contract, which is rather unfair. You can still be Dispel-sprayed to death, but honestly....

James's Suggested Remedy The lazy way out is to just disallow this combo. This would make me cry. It is so cool that one can cheat this way there must be some better way of mitigating the unfairness of it.

I suggest detecting a double-contract as a special case, and summoning a new slimebot to the battle. he would be named the "Delay Devil". He would be equipped with Dispel Spray, and he would have AI that knows how to use it! Putting him in his own team seems best, although I guess if this condition came up in an 8-team battle, maybe he could join a random team other than the one of the person who pulled off the contract cheat.


=Tritosis=
As demonstrated in this battle those few of us who know Mitosis can use Delay to split into three! Unfortunately (for fairness) all three resulting players have 50% HP, resulting in 150% HP total.

James's Suggested Remedy Again, I wish to discourage the lazy solution of disallowing this, and to propose one or more ways of leaving this trick enabled while balancing it.

Actually, I was a little surprised that I didn't end up with one clone with 50% hp, and a second clone with 25% and myself with 25%. That would be okay HP-wise

Another possibility is to detect this as a special case, and make the second clone a clone of the first clone. Thus it would end up with 25% of not only HP, but stats too.

Another possibility is to make another special "cheat" response similar to the Delay Devil. In this case it might be funny if the second clone would join a random opponent's team instead of your own.

=Double Supersonic Smash=
Nothing cool happens here. You don't get 3 turns as I expected, you just spend a heck of a lot of MP to get the one extra turn. That is not to say that I think 3 turns would necessarily be appropriate or fair for that price, I just thought I would mention it, since it fits into the same category of limited-availability-attacks that can be doubled up with Delay.
Super Slime
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 PostTue Jul 21, 2009 7:33 pm
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This is awesome.

I've got a simple idea to remove the brokenest combos.

Mogri's Suggested Remedy

Disallow execution of an attack that's already being charged. This takes out Double Contract and Tritosis while still allowing Double Assassinate.

Then again, this seems to fall under "the lazy way out" in your taxonomy. On the other hand, your proposed changes actually penalize the player for performing those combos.

Actually, a few of these surprise me. I don't know why "Tritosis" doesn't put the player at 25% life (where I think I'd be okay with the combo, resulting in the original player at 25% of original HP, and two clones at 50% and 25% each). The negative MP thing is also unintended. I could've sworn MP costs were deducted earlier.

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing more opinions (even if I think you're the only Delay user).
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Liquid Metal King Slime
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 PostTue Jul 21, 2009 8:36 pm
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Mogri wrote:
Disallow execution of an attack that's already being charged. This takes out Double Contract and Tritosis while still allowing Double Assassinate.


But that would also disallow double final sludgement, double super-shock, double brick bombard, double Dire Wound, etc.

Mogri wrote:
Then again, this seems to fall under "the lazy way out" in your taxonomy. On the other hand, your proposed changes actually penalize the player for performing those combos.


Yes, they do penalize the user, but they are funny enough that I would still use them in "Dummefaust" type situations.

Mogri wrote:
Actually, a few of these surprise me. I don't know why "Tritosis" doesn't put the player at 25% life (where I think I'd be okay with the combo, resulting in the original player at 25% of original HP, and two clones at 50% and 25% each).


Perhaps the stat division is happening too late? Or it is dividing the starting HP again rather than dividing the result of the previous division?

Mogri wrote:
The negative MP thing is also unintended. I could've sworn MP costs were deducted earlier.


Ah! A bug then?

Mogri wrote:
Anyway, I'm interested in hearing more opinions (even if I think you're the only Delay user).


I know that Spoonweaver has it in the same battle where I Double-Contracted myself-- leading to a potential double-double-contract situation -- which I will win anyway thanks to my Dispel Spray >:)

Also, I was wondering. DO any Slimebot OMEGA incarnations have Delay? I was wondering whether or not the AI would have figured out to use any of these.
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 PostTue Jul 21, 2009 8:47 pm
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Quote:
...you're the only Delay user


I use delay too. The crazy stuff you can do with it is just too good to pass up.
(EDIT: I wrote this before seeing the post above)

To add to what makes it good, I'd like to point out it's help in the whole super shock/debuffing metagame. With delay it's possible to Purge yourself on the same turn you use the attack you can bearly afford thus circumventing the other players plan of keeping you "without bricks".


Quote:
=Delay Devil's Contract=

I honestly never thought of this one. he he he, thanks.
As far as it goes, it's kind of risky, when you're in the contract range you normally don't have a turn to spare. I've lost plenty of matches because I didn't have the MP needed to contract when I needed it, and was dead the next turn. This is only slightly better then extending a contract and costs a turn. I think it's pretty fair.

Quote:
=Tritosis=

Sigh... I wish I had this move.... That said, I really don't see a problem with this. Though, I suggest making the player and clones at 33% instead of 25%, 50%, 25%. I mean if you make a special case you might as well make it right.
Super Slime
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 PostTue Jul 21, 2009 9:22 pm
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Spoonweaver wrote:
As far as it goes, it's kind of risky, when you're in the contract range you normally don't have a turn to spare. I've lost plenty of matches because I didn't have the MP needed to contract when I needed it, and was dead the next turn. This is only slightly better then extending a contract and costs a turn. I think it's pretty fair.


This is a good point.

James Page wrote:
Also, I was wondering. DO any Slimebot OMEGA incarnations have Delay? I was wondering whether or not the AI would have figured out to use any of these.

Have? Yes. Use? No. Delay requires cleverness to be useful. Like you said, on the surface, it's a bad tradeoff, and it remains a bad tradeoff unless you find some way to take advantage of its side effects.

Quote:
Sigh... I wish I had this move.... That said, I really don't see a problem with this. Though, I suggest making the player and clones at 33% instead of 25%, 50%, 25%. I mean if you make a special case you might as well make it right.

I don't think 33-33-33 is "right." The obvious result of using Mitosis twice would be ending up with 1/4 of the HP you started with. This shouldn't be a special case and is almost definitely a logic error (which probably affects other attacks). I just applied a fix, I think. James, would you mind testing it?
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 PostWed Jul 22, 2009 12:01 am
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Mogri wrote:

I don't think 33-33-33 is "right." The obvious result of using Mitosis twice would be ending up with 1/4 of the HP you started with. This shouldn't be a special case and is almost definitely a logic error (which probably affects other attacks). I just applied a fix, I think. James, would you mind testing it?


I just tested it and it works as you intended.
Liquid Metal King Slime
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 PostWed Jul 22, 2009 3:45 am
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Um, I've never been too clear on the effects of Mitosis on MP ( mostly because I don't know how much the move costs. But isn't the same thing suppose to happen to your MP that happens to HP.
Liquid Metal King Slime
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 PostWed Jul 22, 2009 5:21 am
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More reasons why Delay is Awesome!

1. extending stoneform
(turn one delay stoneform, turn 2 extend stoneform; 3 turn stoneform!)

2. Delaying till after Stoneform ends.

3. Das Duuble Dummefaust en!


Example Battle.


4. It helps when trying to Coup de grace
Liquid Metal King Slime
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 PostTue Aug 04, 2009 9:35 pm
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Meditation + Delayed Chain Combo + Chain Combo = Chain Combo III x 2

Also, Delayed Chain Combo + Chain Combo + Delayed Chain Combo II + Chain Combo II = Chain Combo III x 2
Super Slime
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 PostTue Aug 04, 2009 9:49 pm
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Spoonweaver wrote:
4. It helps when trying to Coup de grace


This was actually one of the original ideas behind Delay.

Spoonweaver wrote:
Um, I've never been too clear on the effects of Mitosis on MP ( mostly because I don't know how much the move costs. But isn't the same thing suppose to happen to your MP that happens to HP.


No, the clone's current MP isn't halved (though maybe it should be).
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Re: Crazy things you can do with Delay 
 PostWed Aug 12, 2009 10:07 pm
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James Paige wrote:
=Double Supersonic Smash=
Nothing cool happens here. You don't get 3 turns as I expected, you just spend a heck of a lot of MP to get the one extra turn. That is not to say that I think 3 turns would necessarily be appropriate or fair for that price, I just thought I would mention it, since it fits into the same category of limited-availability-attacks that can be doubled up with Delay.


I figured out how to properly do a double supersonic smash

Delay SSS, Delay SSS + Attack, Attack = Four consecutive hits

Price is 420 MP + the cost of both the other attacks. So in my case it was 660 MP

Of course since I had to recharge twice, then delay twice to set the whole thing up I didn't really gain anything (except awesomeness)
Liquid Metal King Slime
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 PostThu Aug 13, 2009 7:28 pm
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Awesomeness IS important.
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